Stream/Woods (or Gully/Woods) as Rout Destination

[Vinnie]

Consider, would you be asking this question about a woods road hex?

 

[Tuomo]

Consider, would you be asking this question about a woods road hex?

Depends. Does it help me or my opponent?

 

[Eagle4ty]

Consider, would you be asking this question about a woods road hex?

Since the interpretation of a Gully-Woods hex has been determined to be a terrain type (NOTE: the hyphen), that same principal exists for a Woods-Road hex. The answer is No bypass being allowed of a Woods-Road hex as the unit may not bypass the road. However, the answer provided in the Q&A (nor the rule for that matter) does not say the woods in a Gully-Woods hex cannot be bypassed, but simply the combined terrain feature of a Gully-Woods cannot be bypassed (as alluded to by the response from Tuomo and Bob B by bypassing the woods using only the OG cost). In other words, the cost of entering the Gully would still have to be paid to allow bypass of the Woods obstacle. I'm not saying that is the current interpretation of the Q&A or the rule as current accepted practice seems to disallow bypass of a gully-woods or woods-road terrain feature at all, but it could certainly be interpreted as AP Bills has indicated.

 

[apbills]

The Q&A is in the "Total" file...

Thanks. I see now why I did not have that Q&A - I don't think I incorporated the First Edition Q&A, assuming the rules had either been corrected or discarded within the 2nd edition based on those Q&A.

 

[Stewart]

I could not say why it was ruled that way.

Perhaps it was easier than to allow bypass along non-Depression hexsides? Which I think could have been the ruling. I don’t think there would be any rules issues with that.

Bypassing the woods would mean you'd be entering the gully, and the woods is in between the gully and the edge....So, one would have to move through the woods since they are considered IN the gully...which totally is more "displacement" confusion that bypassing by "floating" a Hill woods over lower crest lines.

 

[Stewart]

Consider, would you be asking this question about a woods road hex?

A road isn't really terrain...its a feature of the hex.

 

[apbills]

A road isn't really terrain...its a feature of the hex.

Given "terrain feature" is not actually defined in the index or the body of the rules, and given "Road" is listed as "Terrain" in the rules, and given it is also apparently a feature of the hex, I think that would make it a "terrain feature". That being said, I am pretty sure I'm not going to stop someone from bypassing around the woods in a woods-road hex.

It is a shame that when they updated A4.3 to address the Q&A they did not do a better job. I don't have the 1st edition anymore, so I am not sure the exact changes, however, apparently the inclusion of "(including gully-woods)" in the sentence was felt to be enough to not only change the meaning of "to skirt the edges of any other terrain feature" to mean "if any other terrain is in the hex".

I will say that this interpretation does seem to align with the last statement of B.1 "In some cases a hex will contain more than one terrain type with neither dominant over the other, in which case the terrain effects of both types are cumulative." in that in order to bypass a hex the only terrain types that may be in the hex are buildings and woods since no other terrain types allow it, which when added together would effectively mean "AND" from a logic perspective. In other words, if one terrain type does not allow it, it can't be done in a combination hex.

In the end it doesn't matter as long as everyone understands it. It still would be nice to clarify this a bit better.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Given "terrain feature" is not actually defined in the index or the body of the rules, and given "Road" is listed as "Terrain" in the rules, and given it is also apparently a feature of the hex, I think that would make it a "terrain feature". That being said, I am pretty sure I'm not going to stop someone from bypassing around the woods in a woods-road hex.

It is a shame that when they updated A4.3 to address the Q&A they did not do a better job. I don't have the 1st edition anymore, so I am not sure the exact changes, however, apparently the inclusion of "(including gully-woods)" in the sentence was felt to be enough to not only change the meaning of "to skirt the edges of any other terrain feature" to mean "if any other terrain is in the hex".

I will say that this interpretation does seem to align with the last statement of B.1 "In some cases a hex will contain more than one terrain type with neither dominant over the other, in which case the terrain effects of both types are cumulative." in that in order to bypass a hex the only terrain types that may be in the hex are buildings and woods since no other terrain types allow it, which when added together would effectively mean "AND" from a logic perspective. In other words, if one terrain type does not allow it, it can't be done in a combination hex.

In the end it doesn't matter as long as everyone understands it. It still would be nice to clarify this a bit better.

I still believe your initial take was correct, as is the Q&A and the notation in the rule. Let's take a closer look at the Q&A and the rule:

• A4.3 May a unit bypass a gully-woods hex? A. No. [An97]
• (A4.3) ...Bypass cannot be used to skirt the edges of any other terrain feature (including gully-woods),..

Exactly what are these saying? Does it mean. as proposed by many, that the entire hex is a gully-woods and no form of bypass in that hex is allowed; or does it mean that one cannot bypass the woods obstacle in the gully-woods without paying the cost for the gully if bypassed on the level 0 terrain (or non-gully terrain) but may bypass the woods obstacle by paying the COT of the gully regardless of the hexside terrain the bypass is conducted on? Both the Q&A and the rule would seem to affirm both of these assertations. However, if we break it down a bit further and make no assumptions that a gully-woods are a separate terrain feature (it has no special rule delineating it as such), what is allowed by rule and what is disallowed. As you have pointed out A4.3 simply prohibits bypass of any terrain feature other than a building or woods with noted exceptions to include a gully-woods but does say one cannot bypass the woods in a gully woods hex without paying the gully COT, just that the entire combined terrain may not be bypassed (e.g. bypass the woods without paying the COT for the gully).

As for Stewarts assertion that a Woods-Road hex is different; if one accepts that the hyphenated Gully-Woods is a combined terrain feature, it must follow that the hyphenated Woods-Road hex (B13.31) is also a combination terrain feature and thusly if one accepts that a gully-woods cannot allow bypass, neither must a woods-road hex.

 

[zgrose]

FWIW, how have you guys played for so long not understanding what is bypass-able? Just been playing on old maps or what?

 

[Tuomo]

FWIW, how have you guys played for so long not understanding what is bypass-able? Just been playing on old maps or what?

I just do what I want, loudly.

 

[SSlunt]

To complete the process. One could also NOT bypass from Z7 to AA9

 

[Eagle4ty]

To complete the process. One could also NOT bypass from Z7 to AA9


View attachment 25619

That's certainly how it's interpreted.

 

[Stewart]

Given "terrain feature" is not actually defined in the index or the body of the rules, and given "Road" is listed as "Terrain" in the rules, and given it is also apparently a feature of the hex, I think that would make it a "terrain feature". That being said, I am pretty sure I'm not going to stop someone from bypassing around the woods in a woods-road hex.

Terrain IS defined, it's pretty much all of Chap B.
You don't bypass the woods by being on the road. you bypass by being in the other terrain, it could be Brush.
Roads add a "pseudo" location in the hex. And the Bypass rules use hexsides, the only hexside roads would be Narrow streets which in turn are defined as OG instead of the building.

So bypassing woods to move on the road isn't even in the conversation unless its a narrow road and that is clearly defined in the rules.

And the Gully Woods is a potential Rout destination.

 

[apbills]

A road isn't really terrain...its a feature of the hex.

Terrain IS defined, it's pretty much all of Chap B.
You don't bypass the woods by being on the road. you bypass by being in the other terrain, it could be Brush.
Roads add a "pseudo" location in the hex. And the Bypass rules use hexsides, the only hexside roads would be Narrow streets which in turn are defined as OG instead of the building.

So bypassing woods to move on the road isn't even in the conversation unless its a narrow road and that is clearly defined in the rules.

Are you now onboard with a road-woods hex is a "terrain feature"? I have no idea how you got to bypassing the woods on the road, never even proposed that, was never part of the conversation until your post.

What is in question, is the interpretation of this part of A4.3 "Bypass cannot be used to skirt the edges of any other terrain feature (including gully-woods), " in that the Q&A states you can not bypass a gully-woods hex; clearly preventing you from bypassing the woods portion of the hex (due to another terrain feature in the hex). Given a road is a terrain feature, and given the rule states "any other terrain feature", it seems that the rule prohibits the bypassing of the woods portion of the hex.

As stated before, I have never, and will most likely never will, claim someone can not bypass the woods in a woods-road hex. With that stated (once more), I can understand the problem with a gully-woods hex, given that if you pay the cost of the other terrain in the hex (the gully), even though you are "skirting the edge" of that gully, you have bad LOS issues tracing to the hexside(s)/vertices since they are at base level and you would normally have no way of moving through the hex at that level. I assume the simplicity of banning any bypass solved that issue. I accept the need to make the game playable.

Taking B.1, A4.3 and A4.31 together, I am still trying to make them all conceptually line-up in my head, and IMO the Q&A makes it clear how to interpret A4.3 and combination terrain. I think it is easy to ban the bypass of gully-/stream-woods "terrain features" due to the LOS issues and not worry about any others, using the A4.31 rule when you determine the cost to bypass them.

 

[Eagle4ty]

A road isn't really terrain...its a feature of the hex.

It has its own rule B3 (& attendant B4-7) so certainly is terrain as Chapter B is noted as TERRAIN. It is Gully-Woods or Woods-Road that possibly be considered "quai-terrain. To be in a Woods-road hex one must either be on the road (i.e. using the road) or in the woods as a road cannot be bypassed (not used yes, but bypass isn't allowed).

 

[lightspeed]

I'm pretty sure bypass is allowed in a woods-road hex. B13.1, second sentence, makes
it clear to me that a hex such as 19X1 (a woods-road hex) is a woods hex. Per B.1, usually
the centre dot dictates the (dominant) terrain type. Perhaps the second sentence of
B13.1 is there to make things explicit in the case of woods-road hexes.

indy

 

[Eagle4ty]

I'm pretty sure bypass is allowed in a woods-road hex. B13.1, second sentence, makes
it clear to me that a hex such as 19X1 (a woods-road hex) is a woods hex. Per B.1, usually
the centre dot dictates the (dominant) terrain type. Perhaps the second sentence of
B13.1 is there to make things explicit in the case of woods-road hexes.

indy

Per B13.41 "... [EXC: a vehice(s) in a woods-road hex is always considered on the road unless beneath a partial Trail Break counter]."
I have considered "always" to mean without fail and no other implications.

 

[GeorgeBates]

Note that a unit in a Trench also receives the Rally Bonus

A10.61, oft overlooked...

 

[Stewart]

I'm pretty sure bypass is allowed in a woods-road hex. B13.1, second sentence, makes
it clear to me that a hex such as 19X1 (a woods-road hex) is a woods hex. Per B.1, usually
the centre dot dictates the (dominant) terrain type. Perhaps the second sentence of
B13.1 is there to make things explicit in the case of woods-road hexes.

indy

Sure why wouldn't it be...but you can't bypass the interior on the road. Just the hexsides.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Sure why wouldn't it be...but you can't bypass the interior on the road. Just the hexsides.

However, by rule you are bypassing the road, another terrain feature delineated by a separate rule in Chapter B.