Stopping in Enemy AFV's hex

[clubby]

2.6 ENEMY AFV: A vehicle cannot voluntarily stop or end its MPh in Motion in an enemy AFV's hex (whether Known or not) unless it can do so out of that AFV's LOS (i.e., while Bypassing a hexside opposite that of the DEFENDER'S Bypass AFV), or unless it can, at the moment and position of entry into that hex, attack that AFV (regardless of its To Hit possibility) and be capable of destroying or shocking it with an Original TK or IFT DR of 5 (using a non-Depletable ammo type available to the vehicle). A vehicle thus barred from remaining in an AFV's hex may not attempt ESB in that hex.

Is this based on any target facing? I know that for a shot in the same hex, target facing is determined randomly with the colored DR on the TH roll. So, you roll into the hex of an AFV with 18 and 8 armor and you have an MA with 17TK. You can satisfy the requirements with a side or rear shot, but not a shot from the front. Does this satisfy the requirements? Thanks.

 

[jrv]

[misfire]

JR

 

[clubby]

Wait, what? How would an attack by the moving AFV against the defensive AFV be determined by the moving, attacking AFV's armor facing? I think our wires are crossed on this question.

 

[jrv]

Wait, what? How would an attack by the moving AFV against the defensive AFV be determined by the moving, attacking AFV's armor facing? I think our wires are crossed on this question.

Sorry; I replied to that backwards. It is the facing of the defender toward the attacker at the moment of entry that determines which armor to compare. If the non-moving defender has its front armor facing the moving unit as the moving unit enters, the front armor factors are used, and if the defender has its rear armor facing the moving unit, the rear armor factors are used, and if there is a mix, you can use the lowest that could be hit by the moving unit. The important part is that you do *not* use the in-hex, hit-a-random-facing hit location. You use the facing you see in the adjacent location.

JR

 

[Binchois]

Isn't "the moment and position of entry" saying that you should assume both vehicles' respective CAs are the same as they were immediately before the moving AFV crossed into the other's hex?

That's the only thing that makes sense to me. But, wow, what a badly written rule! What about that last sentence:

A vehicle thus barred from remaining in an AFV's hex may not attempt ESB in that hex.
​

If the vehicle didn't MPs remaining and can't attempt ESB, what effect is "barred from remaining..."? I guess D2.6 is simply prohibiting the vehicle from entering if it couldn't leave, but it seems like it could be stated much more clearly.

 

[clubby]

OK, that makes a little more sense. So to avoid target selection limits, the defending AFV should turn it's front armor towards the moving AFV (in this situation the AFV would not be able to stop in it's hex but I understand that is not applicable for all situations.)

 

[clubby]

It does say voluntarily stop, which to me means becomes shocked, stunned, immobilized, bogged in the hex or maybe run into a HIP AFV or fortification that was unknown upon entry. Agree, it's not super clear, but I would think it means you can't enter if you can't possibly leave with all the information you currently have. Now, can your opponent reveal a HIP fortification or AFV before you enter knowing that now you don't have enough MF to leave, so you can't enter?

 

[jrv]

Isn't "the moment and position of entry" saying that you should assume both vehicles' respective CAs are the same as they were immediately before the moving AFV crossed into the other's hex?

That's the only thing that makes sense to me. But, wow, what a badly written rule! What about that last sentence:

A vehicle thus barred from remaining in an AFV's hex may not attempt ESB in that hex.
​

If the vehicle didn't MPs remaining and can't attempt ESB, what effect is "barred from remaining..."? I guess D2.6 is simply prohibiting the vehicle from entering if it couldn't leave, but it seems like it could be stated much more clearly.

A unit might have sufficient MP to leave but attempt to perform ESB anyway. ESB can be performed at any point during the MPh (before the MP are needed, of course). A potential sleaze, which the rule fixes, would be to enter with plenty of MP left but attempt ESB.

JR

 

[jrv]

It does say voluntarily stop, which to me means becomes shocked, stunned, immobilized, bogged in the hex or maybe run into a HIP AFV or fortification that was unknown upon entry. Agree, it's not super clear, but I would think it means you can't enter if you can't possibly leave with all the information you currently have. Now, can your opponent reveal a HIP fortification or AFV before you enter knowing that now you don't have enough MF to leave, so you can't enter?

Your opponent can reveal anything he likes, but he would have to do so before you announce the entry MP expenditure, similar to DFF.

JR

 

[Binchois]

A unit might have sufficient MP to leave but attempt to perform ESB anyway. ESB can be performed at any point during the MPh (before the MP are needed, of course). A potential sleaze, which the rule fixes, would be to enter with plenty of MP left but attempt ESB.

JR

Aha! Genius!!

P.S. what interesting questions have been asked this weekend! With great discussions as well. Good (if geeky) stuff!:study: