StE Round 2 ALLIED Help Thread

[Palantir]

ALLIED players ONLY of Rd 2's "HSG AM First Clash"Seeing the Elephant may post questions here.Questions will be answered by assigned Tourney Coordinators = Mad Russian for the Allies.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LIST YOUR SETUPS or STRATEGY HERE!!!!

This thread is just if you have questions.

I guess you can also post of your glorious actions! But please do not reveal any "hard data" on the scenario or game. That means you don't say: "I just received 10 T-34's on turn 4!!!" You don't even mention what you get or what the enemy has!!! But you can say my attack is going according to play & just overran the first objective etc.

 

[Mad Russian]

Tank Battle Questions/Tactics

So far all the questions/answers/tactics have been aimed at the Guards scenario....but what about the meeting engagement or in CM parlance the ME?!!

First off, as the Soviets do you need to advance to win? Do you have enough of the objective flags under or near your control to win?

If not, you need to advance! Now, advancing in any scenario can have only two objectives...either to capture objectives or deny objectives from the enemy!

To capture an objective, means that you have units, worth more value, nearer the objective than your opponent. It's not always obvious whether you have accomplished that, or not, until AFTER the scenario ends! Not the best of times to find out that he has a squad hidden within 20 meters of that particular objective!

To deny an objective, means you deny the points of this particular objective to your opponent! This doesn't have to always be done with occupation. There are times that you can deny an objective with fire. An objective that is in the middle of open ground can easily be denied by long ranged fire, rather than trying to rush troops close to it. In fact, such an objective can be a magnet, to draw your opponent forward, costing him not only the loss of the points for the objective, if you deny them, but the casualty points you may cost him as well.

In assault/attack-defend scenarios, the defender is usually in the business of denying an objective. Holding an objective that the attacker is determined to get can be a very expensive choice if you're not careful.

A tactical decision you want to look at, whether you are the attacker or the defender, is whether you want to even try to control all the objectives! Take a look at the lay of the objectives and your force composition. Do you have the ability to get, or hold, all of the objectives..and if so, at what cost to you?

A large flag is normally worth 300 points, but may be worth as little as 100, or as much as 2,000. A small flag is always worth 100 points. If there are more than four large flags on the map they will all be worth 300 points. From one to four large flags on the map may have an objective that is chosen by the attacker. A single objective will have a point value. The rest will be worthless! The defender will not know which one is worth the points and so has to defend them all. In this particular case the flag may be worth as little as 100 points or as much as 2,000.

So, is losing a tank worth 238 points, a panther, worth losing to control a 100 point objective? Not if I'm giving the orders it's not.

What I have found is often worth more than the objective are the enemy forces you can kill while he tries to defend/take one!

When it comes to taking/holding/denying objectives CM is definately a thinking mans game.

No matter what else happens during a scenario, ALWAYS control objectives in your rear area with some kind of troops. Crews or empty weapons like bazooka's, mortars, spotters, etc. make great choices for objective baby sitters! MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE THEM GARRISONED!!!

Imagine how you'll feel when you get a draw, or lose the scenario, and you had 600 points worth of objectives that you didn't control, deep inside your own lines!!!

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

 

[John Powderly]

MR,

Great post. The insight into the trade-offs between units and objectives is an eye-opener to me. I assume that the victory points from destroying a unit are the same as the points required to purchase a unit? Also, if you destroy a tank but the crew escapes unscathed, what proportion of points if given for destroying just the tank?

I tried to give you rep, but I have to spread it around some first. :-/

 

[Mad Russian]

Vehicles that are killed get full point value. Any crew that is generated are extra points added to the scenario total by the computer!

Point values for units destroyed are the same as the purchase price AFAIK.

It always amazes me to see a huge fight develop over a single flag that has a known value. The most it can be worth is 300 points unless they are stacked. (more flag at the same location, you should always check to make sure there is only flag at a location) You can watch hundreds if not thousands of points traded, often by both sides, for the priviledge of owning a 300 point flag! Incredible!!

Imagine how you would feel costing him 800+ points in casualties while allowing him to control that 300 point flag? VERY GOOD!!!! :clap:

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

 

[John Powderly]

Ok, Crews are "bonus" points - got it.

How can I tell if multiple flags are at one location?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Mad Russian]

Ok, Crews are "bonus" points - got it.

How can I tell if multiple flags are at one location?

Thanks in advance.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!! Look for multiple flag poles. The way that CM displays things like flags and minefield signs they aways show full when looking at them. BUT the flag poles are all there side by side...

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Mad Russian]

All About 1941 Russian Tanks...

By having drawn the Russians in this scenario you have gotten the toughest assignment in all of CM! To command 1941 Russian armor on the field. But all is not as it seems...

Russian tanks do everything pretty well in 1941 but one thing...they don't move well. If you give a Russian tank or platoon movement orders in 1941 you will see a LONG delay to order exectution. A tank that is out of command control can take more than a turn to respond to your orders.

What to do about this?

First, it is imperative that you keep your platoons together and unbuttoned.

Second, give movement orders to the unit(either a single tank or a platoon) with only one thought in mind. GET THEM MOVING THIS TURN!!!!!

When I use Russian 1941 armor, and with a name like the Mad Russian you might imagine that I fight with Russian equipment often, I only want my tanks moving!!

To get past the large delay built into early war Russian tanks get them moving! Once they are moving send them where you want them to go. That seems simple enough and it's what we're all trying to accomplish...the question is how????????

Give a movement order with a single waypoint. Make sure that the unit is still moving at the end of the turn. So during your next movement phase the tank unit will still be moving. You want the exectution of the movement order to occur in THIS TURN if at all possible! Even if the tank won't move this turn, make sure that whatever turn it does move it will still be moving at the end of that turn.

Beware of just putting a 3km movement order out there to get them started though. Russian tanks don't start moving very quickly and they adjust where they are moving to even less quickly. Once you tell them where you want them to go they will pretty much go there before listening to any changes of plan! A little practice at this and it will become second nature to you.

Now about your tanks. The T-26 isn't a bad tank. It isn't a good tank either. But in 1941 few tanks were good tanks. The good news as a Soviet commander is that normally if you get a single T-26 you get a truckload of them. In CM barrage fire, where lots of guns fire at the same target, is VERY EFFECTIVE!! Read that to mean that with barrage fire enough 20mm AA firing will KILL a King Tiger!

There are lots of ways to take a tank out of the fight. I really don't care which of them helps me. Whether he becomes immobilized and can't move to the fight, whether his gun gets hit and won't fire, whether he becomes rattled and the crew abandons the tank, whether I kill it with a penetration at a weak spot in the armour, or wether it's an out and out penetration kill! I don't care. I want his armor out of the fight anyway I can get it out!!

Barrage firing may well give you all those results but a clean penetration kill. Works for me!

The barrage firing tactic is one that was definately used by the Russians! And remained in effect at least all the way through the 80's, if not until today. In WWII they recongized that without command and control of every vehicle the unit should all fire at the same target. During the war their optics weren't good enough for long range engagments so they would close in and fire with many weapons. The result? The enemy tank was either knocked out or forced to pull back out of the fight. On the battlefield that is the same result.

So get your tanks moving, keep them together and target a single tank with many of yours. Results soon to follow...

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

 

[Mad Russian]

General Tank Killing Tactics...

Keep in mind when I refer to killing a tank I mean either an immobilization, gun or total kill.

Of course the best way to kill a tank is with another tank...or maybe not!

AT Guns were designed to do the job. Be aware that once you fire in the LOS of any other units you will be spotted and fired back on. The same with a tank.

So, to maximize your effect keyhole your AT assets. In other words put them with a very limited LOS/LOF to the target. Then they can only get return fire from a very limited area and may actually survive the combat. Between buildings is a great example of a keyhole. So is a dip in the terrain.

Ambushing is another great way to use your AT assets. Put the gun behind the building with an LOS/LOF to the crossroads! First tank in gets hit!

Also, use TRP's to help you hit them. If your AFV/AT Gun doesn't move it gets bonus' when seeing if you hit the target if it is close to or sitting on a TRP!!

BIG GUNS have an advantage that they can gun kill a tank withoug even seeing it... That enemy tank is sitting just behind that building...then area fire right in front of the tank as close as you can get to it. You may well gun damage the tank with the blast of your gun. 100mm and up work well with this tactic.

Buildings are an advantage to both sides. They hide his tanks but you get to blow them up!! A building that collapses will cause enough dust to be worthy of a smoke round for cover to move forward behind. BUT it may also kill the tank! In a scenario playtest I destroyed a building with a Panther behind it to eliminate his cover and the collapsing building destroyed the tank!!

Infantry with nothing more than Molotov cocktails and grenades. IF infanty has Molotov cocktails they will try to use them first. They are pretty worthless against closed top vehicles and pretty deadly against open topped ones. If they don't have any Molotov cocktails they will use whatever grenades they have as anti-tank grenades of the highest order! They will almost always immobilize a vehicle and about half the time kill it!! You must be within 30 meters to use these.

Panzerfausts and bazookas of all kinds have their own ranges and are all good at killing tanks.

Note that infantry units must not be pinned in order to attack a tank!

Good Luck and Good Hunting.


MR

 

[Mad Russian]

Flanking

Under normal circumstances the best way to kill a tank is from the side.

That means get yourself in a postion to shoot into the side of the vehicle. Most of the time easier said than done. The shooter really doesn't matter, bazooka, ATG or tank...they will all kill from the side.

What you want to do is somehow get the tank to turn his side to you or not move while you move to his side.

With some practice this will become second nature to you!!

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR

 

[neon]

During the war their optics weren't good enough for long range engagments so they would close in and fire with many weapons.

How close are we talking MR?

 

[Mad Russian]

How close are we talking MR?

Generally the Soviet optics weren't good much over about 700 meters if I remember correctly. German optics were legendary for allowing hits at beyond 2,000 meters.

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

MR