Stationary target and Leader Benefit.

Tim Niesen

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Early this morning I had an idea. Duh. There is a sequential movement of first a 9-1 leader, using Assault Move, into a hex with a now abandoned Panzer 3 J, and then sequentially a 628 Russian combat engineer with a FT, moving into the same hex from the same original location. There are two Rumanian defenders, the first a 247 half squad Adjacent, and another group of Rumanians totally ten factors two hexes away. Taking into account the residuals, is there any advantage of moving the units sequentially? The leader first. We assume that the leadership modifer still helps the moving unit. If so is this a proper Russian tactic? Tim
 

von Marwitz

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The Leadership DRM only benefits other friendly units if they move together during their MPh. So no -1 modifier to the 628 moving in after and seperately from the 9-1. You do get the leader benefit if the 628 has concluded its movement and the stack of 9-1 plus 628 would be fired on later. While the 628 is moving, the 9-1 would not even be attacked if the 628 is shot at.

Not to move as a stack can have the benefit that the defenders have already used some of their Defensive First Fire options, making it easier for the follow up units to survive the attack or even to avoid some attacks at all if other units are closer to the firing defenders. However, this might come at the cost of facing the extra Residual FP attack. If it is worth to take the RFP attack mainly depends on the terrain, TEM and Hindrances.

Moving separately might spread the risk. But could trigger more Snipers.

It really depends on the situation.

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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There is a sequential movement of first a 9-1 leader, using Assault Move, into a hex with a now abandoned Panzer 3 J, and then sequentially a 628 Russian combat engineer with a FT, moving into the same hex from the same original location. There are two Rumanian defenders, the first a 247 half squad Adjacent, and another group of Rumanians totally ten factors two hexes away. Taking into account the residuals, is there any advantage of moving the units sequentially? The leader first. We assume that the leadership modifer still helps the moving unit. If so is this a proper Russian tactic?
The leadership DRM would not apply during the friendly MPh if the 9-1 and 6-2-8 moved in separate stacks. If they move together as a stack the leadership DRM applies.

Whether or not to move as a single stack is a complicated calculation. If the two units move together they can both be attacked with a single DFF attack, but the leader can help the MMC. If they move separately one might draw fire during the MPh, allowing the other to take only the residual or perhaps residual & SFF or perhaps even Advance in. If they moved separately the DEFENDER might wait until the DFPh phase to attack both anyway. Leadership would apply during the DFPh even if the two units entered separately.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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This is something which I never thought of before. Moving sequentially. Neither of the Rumanian unit/units hexes have leaders with them. Of course, Steve seems to have heavily invested in HIP units, but he threw everything and the kitchen sink at the Russian 9-1 and the 628 with the FT last turn, so it is clearly doubtful if there any HIP units with a LOS to the abandoned tank. We will see! With our swarms of Russian infantry and leaders, my ally argues that any ART modules with an off board observer would have been a clearly superior choice than the three German tanks, all of which are now dead or abandoned. Tim
 

Eagle4ty

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Note there are a few caveats to this however: 1) If the Leader is a Commissar (not applicable in your situation) as long as the commissar is in the same "location" at the time the shot/RFP is resolved, having moved first or not, the morale of any other unit in that location is raised by one (A25.221) [in essence the same as a -1 Ldr moving with the unit]. 2) The same is true for the Japanese (G1.41).
 

hongkongwargamer

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There are other, more tactical consideration as well.

Move separately and your opponent has to agonize about which one to hit and where. The more decisions you force, the more mistakes he makes.

Move together, then there's no question: he's gonna shoot the whole stack.
 

jrv

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There are other, more tactical consideration as well.

Move separately and your opponent has to agonize about which one to hit and where. The more decisions you force, the more mistakes he makes.

Move together, then there's no question: he's gonna shoot the whole stack.
In this case the units were assault-moving, not into Open Ground, not ADJACENT to the DEFENDERs, spending only one MF, and there was only one DEFENDER stack. In that case the DEFENDER can just wait until the DFPh to hit both units for the same effect. If any of those attributes aren't true, then yes the DEFENDER has to think. In this special case if the DEFENDER wants to fire at both units he can wait until DFF with no effective difference.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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Interesting exceptions. In thirty years of playing, I just never thought of moving units in sequence with a leader. Duh! Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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JR, But if you await the defensive fire phase, then the Soviet 628 leader would the regain the leadership modifier of the 9-1 leader. The other caveat is that a Soviet 447 is also eyeing the hex from the building across the alley. This unit would be my preference as to the source of the half squad to enter the tank. We cannot move it first because it's movement would cause any of Steve's five airplanes to strafe the two Adjacent Stuarts in the alley. Don is advocating moving afterward one of the Stuarts into the hex. I think that this course is too many eggs in one basket! Risks airplanes point attack. Tim
 

jrv

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But if you await the defensive fire phase, then the Soviet 628 leader would the regain the leadership modifier of the 9-1 leader.
Yes. The answer is, "it depends." If for some reason you need to break both units to achieve your goal, then waiting until DFPh when both units would be attacked at full strength is probably best over one being attacked with a full-strength attack and the other by a residual and a possible SFF attack. Note I have not computed the chances, so that might not be true. If your "goal" is to break the leader, the two attacks (during MPh vs during DFPh) are probably the same. If your goal is break the MMC, you probably prefer firing during the MPh so the MMC does not benefit from the 9-1.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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Yes, Indeed, my friend Don Carlucci, who has been playing Vassal for some time has convinced me to join him. He is the man notorious for helping the much maligned game designer modify the Tobruk armor factors. He is playing a high school friend who he has never won an ASL game against. He just learned from his friend that breaking a assault moving unit puts it into the penalty for moving. All of us have been playing that incorrectly for decades. Steve refused to believe it until I located the rule at A 8.14. Ignorance is bliss until it runs into a rule guru. Tim
 

Jeffrey D Myers

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I had not appreciated that one, either. A8.14 points to A4.61, which expressly discusses treatment of a broken unit that had used Assault Movement....
 

jrv

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I had not appreciated that one, either. A8.14 points to A4.61, which expressly discusses treatment of a broken unit that had used Assault Movement....
This can be really useful if the unit has used > 1 MF. On DFF you break, and with SFF the unit is now affected by FFNAM. If the unit only spent one MF you have to fire another unit to get the FFNAM.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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I just thought of another variation of the situation. If the leader makes it successfully, non broken or pinned into the hex, and the 628 is unbroken (broken would qualify it as still moving), does the leader ship modifer help the stationary units if the airplane attacks in defense first fire. This presupposes that my ally's interpretation of the strafing rule is correct; that is, all stationary units in the path of four hexes get hit in defensive first fire. Tim
 

jrv

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I just thought of another variation of the situation. If the leader makes it successfully, non broken or pinned into the hex, and the 628 is unbroken (broken would qualify it as still moving), does the leader ship modifer help the stationary units if the airplane attacks in defense first fire. This presupposes that my ally's interpretation of the strafing rule is correct; that is, all stationary units in the path of four hexes get hit in defensive first fire.
Even though aircraft attack both moving and non-moving units in the hex, they do not make the units in the hex into a single stack during the MPh. Leaders moving with a moving stack will help only units in that moving stack, and leaders not moving currently will only help units that are not moving currently.

JR
 
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