Starter Kit Boards and their place in ASL

[WaterRabbit]

A lot of people have complained about the durability of the new ASLSK boards, but I think this is just reactionary disappointment about not getting anymore mounted boards.

The new boards are quite durable and will stand up to years, even decades of use. As an example, the new boards are exactly the same as the boards from the old Battletech game (not the reprint but the 1st and 2nd editions) that came out in 1984/85. The boards in that game were direct-printed, heavy-duty cardstock and are identicle to the new ASLSK boards in all respects. I still have my original boards from 1984 and they look brand new. And I used the hell out them all through the 80's and early 90's!

So don't worry. The sky isn't falling. The new boards are durable, will lay flat, and can be used with existing mounted boards with only the slightest modification (e.g., slide a piece of corrugated cardboard underneath) - no mounting required.

- Rick

A statistical data point of one is not that convincing. Those boards were crappy as well. I have seen several of these maps that did not hold up. You might have noticed that Battletech went to all paper maps -- especially since the bulk of B-Tech players use miniatures.

I store my Battletech maps flat in a map case and I guess I will have to do that as well with these.

 

[purdyrc]

A statistical data point of one is not that convincing. Those boards were crappy as well. I have seen several of these maps that did not hold up. You might have noticed that Battletech went to all paper maps -- especially since the bulk of B-Tech players use miniatures.

I store my Battletech maps flat in a map case and I guess I will have to do that as well with these.

Well, I'm on vacation at the moment so I can't survey the entire generation of Battletech players about their maps, but all the guys I played with still have their maps intact. As you point out, FASA moved to paper maps (in a cost-cutting effort!!!) and they were not well received. Everyone held onto their cardboard maps because they held up so well.

Paper maps suck. They fray at the ends (if you're lucky, that's all they do) or tear. The creases are a pain to get to lay flat and for really large maps, storage becomes a problem.

The Starter Kit maps will last. After all, if the Battletech maps survived 20+ years of heavy, metal miniatures use, how long will the ASL maps last with just pushing tiny pieces of cardboard across them?

- Rick

 

[Loquitor]

I think I have said this many times before....a wargamer will always find something to complain about :nuts:

 

[Gunner Scott]

ya but, this outfit really gives you alot to complain about. And people complain about Critical Hit! MMP is making those guys look great.

Scott

I think I have said this many times before....a wargamer will always find something to complain about :nuts:

 

[WaterRabbit]

I think I have said this many times before....a wargamer will always find something to complain about :nuts:

Which is why we are called 'grognards', duh.

My group of B-tech players had a hard time coming up with an undamaged original map. This style of map is fine for an S&T game you might play twice, but not for the use I have had out of my ASL maps. I would frankly be surprise if the number of games of B-tech you have played even approached half the number of ASL games I have played. (I had to finally buy another copy of BV because the printing on my original counters had worn off. I also decided to pick up FKaC with the starter kit because my Brits are looking fairly shabby).

The main beef I have with the paper B-tech maps is that the 'hexagons' are not true and they truly are cheaply made (though the glossy ones aren't as bad). The hexagons are taller than they are wide -- makes tracing LOS along hexspines rather dubious). But at least with paper maps I can easily laminate them for a fairly low cost if I found it necessary. And frankly I doubt paper maps are much cheaper than these cardboard things.

 

[Robin Reeve]

I don't mind one or the other sort of map.
I usually place an acrylic (or "organic") glass (1-2 mm thick) sheet over my mapboards (and over the overlays).
It holds everything down and allows easy couner placement along the "Q" hinge and between boards - and also makes the overlays more stable...
I have acrylic sheets the size of 3 geoboards and 2 geoboards : cheep and easy to cut and use...
They get scratches after some time, of course...

 

[Brian W]

The Starter Kit maps will last.

I'm not so sure. The copies I see are fraying a bit already. But they were not laminated, so that would probably help.

 

[da priest]

... If I have to pay $2 per board but have to replace them every two years then I would rather just pay the $10 / board and have it last 25-30 years.

How about $4 vs $20+, instead of the old numbers? Or are you absolutely sure of your numbers(there's a tag line about that some where?)?

What I want to see is some numbers here. How much does it cost to make the various types of mapboards?

How about for mounted maps the figures quoted by printers "wasnt even high, it was ridiculous." (told you to ask HOB)

Or better yet use the pre-order system and see what kind of response you get for the cost of mounted map boards. If the list price is $112 for AoO with mounted maps what would it cost if it used these crappy maps instead?

Well do the math on the next BV version with 10 maps(4 maps at $112 vs 10 maps at less than $90).......hello anyone home out there?

Now you want mounted maps, some other guys want mounted maps? Pool your cash and get the bloody things mounted at a print shop. Or buy up a lot of old PB/SL boards and mount them yourselves.

This whole issue was covered months ago, and the system is now set in motion. Grousing now about it is silly. You want them to pull the BVv3 off pre-pub and hold an "election" to see how they are going to do business(mounted, unmounted, ASLSK style, h2oBunny's style or some other style?)? Or leave it on and then vote and change maps again after it comes out?

Try thinking and a little research before ya post...

Ya know only the cocksure are the really ignorant..(heard that or something like it, somewhere)...:laugh:

 

[sgtono]

I'm not so sure. The copies I see are fraying a bit already. But they were not laminated, so that would probably help.

Laminating

It will help, but they become easier to crinkle as there is not much bend factor there. Mine are with 5ml, 10ml will for this would be better but then it would be cheaper to buy another map. Laminating also requires different storage considerations than maps that fold. Cutting these maps in half is also a very touchy and often negative experience.

IMOH, I wish they would just stick to the unmounted form that already exists.

Keith

 

[purdyrc]

My group of B-tech players had a hard time coming up with an undamaged original map. This style of map is fine for an S&T game you might play twice, but not for the use I have had out of my ASL maps. I would frankly be surprise if the number of games of B-tech you have played even approached half the number of ASL games I have played.

I was a pimply-faced 13 year old without a girlfriend. I played a LOT of Battletech!

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about the crappy paper maps they came out with in the 90's (after I had had a few girlfriends). I'm talking about the cardboard types. Mine are in excellent to near mint condition. And most people I know used heavy lead miniatures on their maps, not tiny pieces of cardboard.

Just like anything in this world, you will only get a lot out of your stuff if you take care of them (ASLSK and Battletech boards included). I always took care of my things. No one ever spilled a drink on them, they were always folded up and put back into the box when I was finished with them, and here they are 20+ years later in mint condition. And that's AFTER nearly 10 years in storage!

If your stuff is wearing out, what are you doing to it?!

Take care of your gear and it will last.

- Rick

 

[Dr Zaius]

This whole issue was covered months ago, and the system is now set in motion. Grousing now about it is silly. Try thinking and a little research before ya post...

Ya know only the cocksure are the really ignorant..(heard that or something like it, somewhere)...

Ease up there big guy. Although Keith says MMP feels satisfied the ASLSK-type maps have been accepted by the community, I've seen a ton of people complaining about it. WaterRabbit isn't expressing any far out or outlandish point of view that hasn't already been expressed by a significant number of other gamers.

What percentage of the ASLSKs were purchased by existing players vs. new ones? I'm not sure and I don't think anyone else is either. The point being, I'm not 100% convinced the ASL community has embraced this idea willingly. They may indeed be forced to live with it, but they still have the right to make their feelings known on the matter.

You want them to pull the BVv3 off pre-pub and hold an "election" to see how they are going to do business (mounted, unmounted, ASLSK style, h2oBunny's style or some other style?)? Or leave it on and then vote and change maps again after it comes out?

I don't think that was what he was saying. He was simply saying that after using the new product for a while he doesn't like it. He wasn't given a "vote" on it to begin with and he is a paying customer. To my mind that gives him every right to express an opinion on it doesn't it?

And I still haven't seen an answer to my original point. The whole policy of the way these are being implemented is a mess. On the one hand we are being told that this is the new "official" map style for ASL, but then MMP is saying that its next major module will not follow this policy (AoO). Yes I know MMP already has these boards printed and wants to get rid of them, but this is still just about as disjointed as you can get. Let me see if I have this straight:

1. The ASLSK-style maps are now the "official" ASL map standard.
2. These are not available for maps 1-52 yet and there are no plans to make them available.
3. "Old-style" mounted ASL boards are being used for the first print run of AoO (existing maps).
4. Mounted boards will not be released for any other ASL product (including if there is ever a reprint of AoO).
5. Unmounted "paper maps" are available in existing quantities only. Once they are gone there is no plan to print any more.

So unless I missed something really obvious here (and I may have), there is no map plan for ASL at all! Everyone knows I'm an MMP supporter, but I also call it like I see it.

 

[Countertroll]

1. The ASLSK-style maps are now the "official" ASL map standard.
2. These are not available for maps 1-52 yet and there are no plans to make them available.
3. "Old-style" mounted ASL boards are being used for the first print run of AoO (existing maps).
4. Mounted boards will not be released for any other ASL product (including if there is ever a reprint of AoO).
5. Unmounted "paper maps" are available in existing quantities only. Once they are gone there is no plan to print any more.

1) that is what MMP says, so we must accept it. Like it or hate it, they appear to be here to stay.
2) They are not yet available, correct. They have a plan to relase 10 in BV3, and then...who knows the pace; although I am certain it will not satisfy anyone.
3) Becuase they have them, that is why they are being used. It is a simple case of economics.
4) directly related to your first point.
5) The unmounted maps were a direct result of the printing and mounting process used by the old style maps. As a result, the new style boads will not provide unmounted surplus.

Now, all that being said, I believe that as the core maps continue to grow, MMP could put unmounted versions on the P# and then we could put our money where out mouth is. They are out nothing and if we do not order enough to cover costs, we lose some ground to stand on. Heck, GMT just P# some maps, and have had them hit 500. If they can do it, I believe MMP can.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Well, I think I am pretty set, I laminated my mounted boards and also my unmounted boards, my travelling set. So I think its a moot point for me. For those of you who want to make your mounted boards last, try laminating them.


Scott

1. The ASLSK-style maps are now the "official" ASL map standard.
2. These are not available for maps 1-52 yet and there are no plans to make them available.
3. "Old-style" mounted ASL boards are being used for the first print run of AoO (existing maps).
4. Mounted boards will not be released for any other ASL product (including if there is ever a reprint of AoO).
5. Unmounted "paper maps" are available in existing quantities only. Once they are gone there is no plan to print any more.

1) that is what MMP says, so we must accept it. Like it or hate it, they appear to be here to stay.
2) They are not yet available, correct. They have a plan to relase 10 in BV3, and then...who knows the pace; although I am certain it will not satisfy anyone.
3) Becuase they have them, that is why they are being used. It is a simple case of economics.
4) directly related to your first point.
5) The unmounted maps were a direct result of the printing and mounting process used by the old style maps. As a result, the new style boads will not provide unmounted surplus.

Now, all that being said, I believe that as the core maps continue to grow, MMP could put unmounted versions on the P# and then we could put our money where out mouth is. They are out nothing and if we do not order enough to cover costs, we lose some ground to stand on. Heck, GMT just P# some maps, and have had them hit 500. If they can do it, I believe MMP can.

 

[Aries]

I missed the opportunity to comment on the old 4 fold maps earlier (or at least the ones I recall).

I never liked them. You couldn't just lift them up (because of the way they folded).
And cutting them apart, ya same response we all give, we are loathe to take a knife to our components whatever the reason.

Durability issues. I have been using boards of identical design for years via Columbia Games which uses them in their block designs. They hold up if you treat them properly.
My Rommel in the Desert has seen massive use, and it looks no worse than a mounted board. I have seen mounted boards go bad at the crease on me eh.

In the end though, we all "know" ASLers customise everything that comes into their grasp.
Unmounted and cheap means nothing more than unmounted and cheap.
The guys using plexglass will not give a damn its a non issue to them.
The guys that scan and print out to put on 3d foam won't care.
The guys like me that scan everything day one it arrives know it can always be replaced.
I do the same with computer games a lot eh, I never use the original in daily usage.
The only thing I can't do is provide the original copy. That I have to buy.

Counters, hmm wouldn't be the first time I made counters. Ever beta test a wargame hehe.
I prefer them made in the usual way of course.

 

[Ole Boe]

3. "Old-style" mounted ASL boards are being used for the first print run of AoO (existing maps).
4. Mounted boards will not be released for any other ASL product (including if there is ever a reprint of AoO).

Just a minor correction.

Board 52 is also already printed in the old-style mounted fashion, and will be included in the Finnish module (I will not even try to type the name) :nuts:
So that will be the last release with mounted boards.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Now, all that being said, I believe that as the core maps continue to grow, MMP could put unmounted versions on the P# and then we could put our money where out mouth is. They are out nothing and if we do not order enough to cover costs, we lose some ground to stand on. Heck, GMT just P# some maps, and have had them hit 500. If they can do it, I believe MMP can.

Well that's a fair idea. I simply have no faith that these components are going to be available when players need them. I purchased a full set of the unmounted maps a few weeks ago just in case. As soon as MMP runs out of those I already anticipate a lot of whining on this forum. Why? Because right now the ASLSK-style maps haven't really effected anything except the ASLSK. Players who want the unmounted maps can still get them so this has really just been a theoretical debate.

Until the unmounted maps run out that is. At that point you will no longer be able to buy maps from MMP at all. You will be forced to turn to ebay, but I imagine the price of mounted maps will triple as soon as the word gets out. Maps usually go for about $5-15 each on ebay, but all you're really paying for is the mounting. You can currently get the unmounted from MMP for $5 each. When those are gone, maps will become a very hot item on ebay.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Ok, I'm am not bashing MMP I'm just aghast at the fact that they are letting ASL fall by the wayside. I visit these forums alot and I see Dalton and Youse on here as much if not more then me checking things out. Perhaps its somekind of joke to them about us whining on how ASL has been getting the short end of the stick of late or who knows.

What I would like to know is why is it that youse keeps saying Hasbro wont let them license out ASL and yet Hasbro lets WoTC license out D&D? Is ASL more popular then D&D?

Just think, if another outfit was allowed to work on ASL, we might have most of the modules instock, perhaps mounted or unmounted maps and so on.

It Just burns me up that these guys talk the talk but refuse to walk the walk. I know, its holst again ranting, ignore him. Thats fine.


Scott

 

[Countertroll]

It is not a matter of just ignoring you Scott.
Many of your concerns are valid.
You have even been known to help people out.
BUT
You have shown time and again an inability to grasp the license issue that ASL exists under.
That and your personal attacks against MMP make it hard to take you seriously.
Take a deep breath, play a scenario and try a different approach.

 

[Pitman]

Scott Holst writes: "Ok, I'm am not bashing MMP I'm just aghast at the fact that they are letting ASL fall by the wayside."

What do you mean you are not bashing MMP? That is ALL you do. It is monomania on your part. 95% of all your posts are directly or indirectly designed to take a swipe at MMP. Do you think we are all so dumb that we can't see through your rather transparent maneuvers?

You have virtually nothing positive to contribute on this message board. Your sole purpose in life is to launch attacks. You give trolls a bad name.

In the 13 years I have been an active participant in on-line forums, I think you may be the first person, out of thousands, whom I have ever simply wanted to see banned. That's right--banned. I never thought I would actually be saying that of anyone, and believe me, I have come across some real losers over the past dozen years.

But I would like to see you put on "read only" and prohibited from posting in this forum (and on Consimworld, too). I don't see any other way to deter you from your constant, deliberate, malicious posting.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hey Mark;

Chill out and eat another dozen donuts.

Scott

Scott Holst writes: "Ok, I'm am not bashing MMP I'm just aghast at the fact that they are letting ASL fall by the wayside."

What do you mean you are not bashing MMP? That is ALL you do. It is monomania on your part. 95% of all your posts are directly or indirectly designed to take a swipe at MMP. Do you think we are all so dumb that we can't see through your rather transparent maneuvers?

You have virtually nothing positive to contribute on this message board. Your sole purpose in life is to launch attacks. You give trolls a bad name.

In the 13 years I have been an active participant in on-line forums, I think you may be the first person, out of thousands, whom I have ever simply wanted to see banned. That's right--banned. I never thought I would actually be saying that of anyone, and believe me, I have come across some real losers over the past dozen years.

But I would like to see you put on "read only" and prohibited from posting in this forum (and on Consimworld, too). I don't see any other way to deter you from your constant, deliberate, malicious posting.