Starter Kit Boards and their place in ASL

[Aries]

I think what you guys might have said, but missed slightly was, "why use the term core modules when the game has no such thing as such".

To me "core" anything refers to you only need this, and can expect to play the entire system with such.

Or at least that is how the role gaming indystry uses the term.
I own the Player's Handbook and the Gamemaster Guide for the Alternity RPG system for instance. I do not require any other book to fully and completely play the game.

So, exactly what is the core set up for ASL would be a good question about now.

If they plan to make products willinilly and make parts required willinilly, then I want them to stop using the term so casually.

 

[WaterRabbit]

I picked up the ASLSK finally just to take a peek. I had already examined the boards using VASL, so the terrain and style looked fine with me. However, the first words out of my mouth were "You've got to be kidding".

These boards are cheap, poorly made, and ill conceived. They won't last long at all. The way they are hinged makes me cringe. A paper map would have been better -- at least I could have laminated that and made it durable. These maps are just a flimsy piece of cardboard. They are a about the thickness of a dime. When placed against a normal ASL board you get a huge escarpment.

I guess I had envisioned the style of low cost board other AH games used. These boards are the same thickness as ASL boards and have the map printed directly on them. They had square cut edges so that at least when you open the board face up the weight of the board pressed the hinges together.

The boards from Beyond the Beachhead are 100 times better. Maybe MMP needs to find out how HoB makes their boards, because these are utter crap. They only way I can see using these is with VASL.

So the answer is a resounding no, these are not part of the ASL core. They are a cheap imitator -- best sold in Wally's world.

Now if these maps were mounted properly I would be all for them. The terrain makes a nice compliment to board 10.

 

[Aries]

Might as well live with the reality water rabbit.

The days of mounted boards were likely over several years ago.

And in a lot of cases, a lot of companies made fairly reasonable wargames and weren't even sold in boxes. Some of my collection were S&T magazine games.

Paper or card stock it matters not to me as long as the item sold isn't going to put me into shock.
I can mount anything I actually like onto a myriad of surfaces in the end.

My personal preference (if I actually had a need) would be 1/8 inch panelling. Adds a bit of weight, but then, if you have a complete ASL collection, you have already gone past the point of no return where weight is concerned hehe.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Oh really. Perhaps you should tell that to the HOB guys since they seem to be unaware of this proclamation.

And while I am glad you "can mount anything" that should not be a requirement for that average consumer. :devil:

 

[da priest]

Oh really. Perhaps you should tell that to the HOB guys since they seem to be unaware of this proclamation...

Sigh, maybe you should ask the HOB guys.

Due to costs, the likelihood of reasonably priced old style boards in your future is de minimus.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Sigh, maybe you should ask the HOB guys.

Has anyone from HoB stated that there will not be any more mounted boards from them either? If so, I have missed that part.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Or perhaps ask the critical hit guys too, they did mounted maps for Finland at War.
But thats nether here nor there, the fact is the ASL hobby is changing and is it for the worse? I'd say no, as long as you have guys like Evan, Chas, Ray T and a bunch of other hard working blokes putting out great ASL stuff, then we should be all good, it's only the newbie that suffers just because there is no ASLRB or BV in stock.

Scott

Sigh, maybe you should ask the HOB guys.

Due to costs, the likelihood of reasonably priced old style boards in your future is de minimus.

 

[da priest]

Has anyone from HoB stated that there will not be any more mounted boards from them either? If so, I have missed that part.

All I've seen is the comment that they are looking at prices real close, since the last printer tripled his quote in their final bill for BtB.

There was briefly a posit by Steve, that they might have to return most of BtB to the printer, if things couldn't be worked out.

 

[Aries]

"And while I am glad you "can mount anything" that should not be a requirement for that average consumer."

Personally, I refuse to call ANYone that buys ANYthing ASL an average consumer hehe.

Lets see, several hundred bucks to play ASL, vs 40 bucks to play just about anything else (and they whine if you tell them it might cost more than 40 too).

Nope, the only people playing ASL, are the above and beyond sort of people.
And I have to state, my notion of gluing a card stock board onto a piece of buy it anywhere panelling is not even in the same league as what is considered "the norm" for what most people do for their ASL.

Plano? I don't need no stinkin plano

 

[Commissar Piotr]

Evening Gents

ASLSK is NOT ASL.
ASLSK board suck as they are of poor quality and look cheap.
ASL is the Rolls-Royce of wargames and ASLSK is a poor excuse.
ASLSK do have it's merit for beginning players but the aim should be ASL and that should be perfectly clear.
I think it is a pity that a very good designer like Evan Sherry can consider to use the ASLSK boards for anything.
It is even worse that MMP is going to make ASLSK scenarios published in a magazine (Operations) that have nothing to do with either ASL or ASLSK. I had the impression that ASLSK was to be a cheap way of introducing players that later could transfer to ASL, why force them to buy a magazine that costs quite some in addition. If there are new scenarios, make them available at the MMP website.

 

[Chas Argent]

ASLSK do have it's merit for beginning players but the aim should be ASL and that should be perfectly clear.

I thought that was the aim. Has someone from MMP said differently?

 

[Aries]

I might be wrong, and feel to correct me if I am indeed wrong, but has MMP not already stated they are not planning to make mounted boards for the future?

Have MMP not already indicated that the only way you will be getting mounted maps is in old stock?

I seem to recall discussing this topic not so far back during the summer.

A the old style boards are horribly expensive to MMP in todays market environment.

and

B. the new style boards have already been seen as adequate by the much of the ASL community if not all of it (but then the ASL community is never 100% about anything eh).

Some see them as a nice way of cutting down on bulk.
Some see them as a better expense option.

Me, I am not going to panic because an old style board is not the same thickness as a new style board.
Heck if I can't overcome that barrier to imaginative solutions, please bury me I am already brain dead for crying out loud.

 

[Dr Zaius]

I thought that was the aim. Has someone from MMP said differently?

Unless I am getting senile, Keith has stated on several occasions that MMP will no longer be producing any mounted boards. I believe they have some existing stock in storage and they are planning to use that for AoO. After that, everything will be the ASLSK-style format.

I hate this idea, although I do understand the rationale behind it. My only gripe is that if this truly is the only way that MMP can do business, then ALL the maps need to be made available in this format. I believe MMP has also stated that they will not be producing the unmounted maps in the future either. Apparently, they see the ASLSK-style maps as being an acceptable replacement for both mounted and unmounted types. We could debate whether that is a good idea till the cows come home, but if this is going to be the direction MMP is going, then surely they have to be available to purchase!?!

I don't see how MMP can say this is going to be the new style, and then turn around and not make them available. That will mean that they will only become available as each module is sent back for reprint. That being the case, it will likely be 10 years before you can aquire a complete set of maps in the new "official" format.

 

[Pitman]

MMP will NOT be doing any more old style mounted mapboards.

The issue with unmounted maps is cost. With old style mounted mapboards, it was easy to do unmounted maps--just print a larger # of the maps, and don't mount some of them. With the new style mounted maps, this is not possible, so you have to do two separate print runs, which of course is much more expensive.

HOB's maps are nice. They have turned out, however, to be quite expensive for HOB and have put the existence of HOB itself in question.

Several people uptopic have whined loudly about the new style mapboards. I say quit your bitching, you spoiled brats. First, it is actually amazing that MMP stuck with the mounted maps as long as they did. Without the benefit of huge AH print runs, and the associated cost savings, old style mounted maps are just very expensive. Second, the maps they did do are of higher quality and more durable than the vast majority of wargame maps being printed. Only a few wargames out there get as much as this "mounted-lite" treatment. Most are just plain paper.

The whining that I occasionally see on this issue really irritates me. If you want to buy enough mounted maps to account not only for their cost but also for all the people who wouldn't be buying them because of their now-great cost, then fine. Put your money where your mouth is. Commit yourself to buying 100 copies of a map at a $10 per map price. If you are NOT willing to do this, then I say shut up and be grateful that you have anything at all.

 

[Dr Zaius]

Mark, I understand your points, but I'm sure glad you're not an official spokesman for MMP. "Quit your whining, you're lucky to have anything at all" -- wow, that's quite a marketing strategy.

 

[Gunner Scott]

All the MMP supporters including MMP them selves have that sort of attitude.
But when your the big kaunna on the block, you can have any attitude you wish.
Scott

Mark, I understand your points, but I'm sure glad you're not an official spokesman for MMP. "Quit your whining, you're lucky to have anything at all" -- wow, that's quite a marketing strategy.

 

[Aries]

Hmm if I could actually get so danged much gaming in, that my boards actually could NOT stand up to all the usage, I would be in friggin heaven seeing them wear out if you want to really know.

I would not be stuck with an insufficient sum of gaming time, and I likely would not have any need for a few other money grabbing hobbies to boot eh.

Buying a new set of boards every 2 years would be cool if I actually used them so damned much I had to do it.

God that would be great.

I have some of my collection that looks new, and it is sob

If you are getting in enough gaming to wear out your stuff just consider yourself lucky eh, it might look pristine and new like some of our stuff.

 

[Pitman]

I'm sure MMP is also glad I am not their official spokesperson. Online diplomacy has never been my strongest suit. But I don't think anyone has any legitimate grounds for complaint regarding the new ASL mapboards.

 

[WaterRabbit]

It is interesting that neither Aries nor Mark responded to the other point I made. Maybe they just like massive inconvenience and want to inflict that on the rest of us.

In the last five years or so before they folded, AH put out quite a few games that used lower cost maps. They were on thick cardboard stock -- the same thickness as ASL boards. They weren't paper maps pasted onto cardboard either. Most of the boards were in four sections that folded up into something about the size of an ASL half-board. I have seen no discussion of this as a possible alternative.

While these flimsy starter kit boards might work for low counter density scenarios, they are a disaster waiting to happen with a high density scenario -- one fumbled gesture and the counters come tumbling down. To prevent such an accident you now have to fasten these maps to the table.

My complaint is not that these maps are inexpensive -- it is that they are CHEAP. I still use boards from my original SL stuff I bought in the early '80s. I don't see these new style boards lasting 2 years much less 20 years. If I have to pay $2 per board but have to replace them every two years then I would rather just pay the $10 / board and have it last 25-30 years.

And yes we will all be stuck with these crappy things if guys like Ron, Aries, and Mark just acquiesce and say "oh that's the way of things".

What I want to see is some numbers here. How much does it cost to make the various types of mapboards? Or better yet use the pre-order system and see what kind of response you get for the cost of mounted map boards. If the list price is $112 for AoO with mounted maps what would it cost if it used these crappy maps instead?

Also, I completely agree with Don on the availability issue here. I am not asking MMP to loose money. What I am asking is that they have a coherent, logical plan for the system. What’s next paper printed counters we have to cut out ourselves and paste to cardboard? How about printing the rulebook in a 5 point font and we just all buy high powered magnifying glasses? That would save a bunch of printing costs.

If costs have to be cut, how about printing the included scenarios in a stapled paper booklet instead of on cardboard stock? I doubt may people care whether the scenarios are printed on card stock. Most people just photocopy them anyway so they can sort them. I am sure that would save a few cents per page.

Man I am starting to long for the AH days. Even when the wicked witch was trying to destroy the gaming division, I doubt she would have come up with such a ploy – she would have thought that this was over the top.

Oh and just so there in no confusion – the graphics and layout of the maps are just fine. I am not grumbling about the art work – just the media.

 

[purdyrc]

A lot of people have complained about the durability of the new ASLSK boards, but I think this is just reactionary disappointment about not getting anymore mounted boards.

The new boards are quite durable and will stand up to years, even decades of use. As an example, the new boards are exactly the same as the boards from the old Battletech game (not the reprint but the 1st and 2nd editions) that came out in 1984/85. The boards in that game were direct-printed, heavy-duty cardstock and are identicle to the new ASLSK boards in all respects. I still have my original boards from 1984 and they look brand new. And I used the hell out them all through the 80's and early 90's!

So don't worry. The sky isn't falling. The new boards are durable, will lay flat, and can be used with existing mounted boards with only the slightest modification (e.g., slide a piece of corrugated cardboard underneath) - no mounting required.

- Rick