Starter Kit Boards and their place in ASL

[Evan Sherry]

Hi ASLers,

What do you think of the ASL Starter kit boards? Do you consider them a part of the main ASL system?

Evan Sherry
Tampa ASL Group

 

[da priest]

What do you think of the ASL Starter kit boards?

Medium nice boards.

Do you consider them a part of the main ASL system?

Even tho I own them..no not really.

However if you got one or two scenarios that beg to use them..try it.

 

[Evan Sherry]

However if you got one or two scenarios that beg to use them..try it.[/QUOTE]


Here in the Tampa ASL Group we consider the ASL Starter Kit boards to be standard boards. Nothing stimulates new scenario designs like new terrain. As a scenario designer, the most usful ASL product is a new board.

Schwerpunkt Volume #10 includes scenario SP111 Why At Erp. It uses board Y and only components found in the ASL Starter Kit. However, it was designed and playtested using standard ASL Rules, although it is easily played using only ASL Starter Kit rules.

Evan Sherry
Tampa ASL Group

 

[WaterRabbit]

No, I do not consider them to be part of the main ASL unless they are available from MMP for separate purchase. Otherwise, you are going to require that longtime players invest $20*4 = $80 in starter kits just to get the boards – with the rest of the material being useless to them.

I should point out that I do not like the starter kit concept at all. I have seen one game system destroyed/fragmented by this idea. I would hate to see ASL go the way of SFB. Now it is certainly possible that this won’t happen, but the way I have seen the starter kit marketed so far, it seems likely. Of course, it would help if MMP laid out in detail the goal of these products on their website. Simple questions like, “If a person buys all of the starter kits, will they have the equivalent of a RB and other components to play against regular ASL players or will they still have to purchase a RB and modules to get going?” IOW, if a person shells out $80 for the starter kits can they play ASL. If not, then you have two separate game systems.

The original Squad Leader game used the Programmed Instruction method to introduce the rules. However, even though “The Guards Counterattack” could be played with the small subset of the rules introduced in the first 7 pages, it was balanced and playable with then entire set of rules.

From everything I have read so far, the scenarios released in the starter kits have not been tested with the complete set of rules. So, if you are going to design scenarios for these boards, at least you are using the right approach. The real question is “Can you make them interesting?”.

 

[Carl]

They're part of ASL as far as I'm concerned. Nothing on them that is contrary to ASL rules.

They're ok boards. As a result of limiting the rules that are applicable to them, they end up with not much interesting on them. I don't like the heavy cardboard. Mine are slightly warped and won't lay down like a real board. As a result I probably won't take them to a tourney as I don't transport plexiglass either.

I'm looking forward to the new SP.

Carl

 

[Priest]

They are not a part of the ASL system, the "ASL system" are the mods that are used by either ASLRBv1 or v2. The starter kits are something unto themselves. As I have said before, I'm not crazy about the ASLSK boards but I can get used to them.

 

[Evan Sherry]

Whether we like the new style boards or not, it has become obvious that the new style board will be the standard ASL board of the future. I'm not sure how well I like them yet. By that I mean the light construction as opposed to the standard mounted board. I will say I prefer mounted boards for their stable playing surface, verses curled (unmounted) that have to be taped into place and cannot be folded or the new baords which tend to warp readily.

Unfortunately, I foresee eventually buying a full set of new style boards so I won't have to constantly stack them with other boards to make an even playing surface. For travel, their light weight is a real advantage. The bottom line is cost. MMP has made their choice based on simple economics and their goal of making this system fully available and we will have to live with it.

I do not like change, but change is inevitable and we must adapt. It won't do any good to get our collective "panties in a wad" over whether or not they are part of the system. The boards are here and we as players are going to make choices to buy them or not buy them.

I will say that $18-$20 for an official ASL/ASLSK product is not a bad deal. I will use the extra counters to replace my worn ones. The ASLSK rules are useless to me. I have absolutely no interest in them and have not/will not even bother to read them. I can teach a newbie faster myself. The value of the ASLSK (rules)is for newbies who will self-teach themselves and their freinds to play.

When I designed SP111 Why at Erp, I kept all this in mind. The idea was to make a scenario that would bridge the gap between Grognard and Newbie. Both can play this scenario. It is well balanced for standard ASL. It was not playtested with the ASLSK rules, though it is fully playable. The question then becomes is balancing the scenario precisely, using the ASLSK rules essential. The answer is yes and no. For "no" the argument is that this is a a SK scenario and the players probably are not especially tactically proficient, so balance is probably adequate. The arguement for "yes" is for re-playablity and long term use of the senario and the fact that players deserve the best balanced scenarios that can be made. This is not the best approch but it is the approach Schwerpunkt will take regarding ASLSK related material. The idea being to make SK material best balanced and most playable using the standard ASL rules, which is the level to which we want all newbies to acheive in the long run.

Evan Sherry
Editor, Schwerpunkt

 

[Carl]

They are not a part of the ASL system, the "ASL system" are the mods that are used by either ASLRBv1 or v2.

:stop: As you define it. Luckily I've been around this bend enough to not really care. I bought Advanced Squad Leader SK, have tried the SK rules and would play the SK rules if a someone requested at a tourney. I'll use the SK counters and boards and full ASL rules with an SP scenario. So it doesn't really matter whether anyone considers Advanced Squad Leader SK part of the system or not.

Sounds like "ASLSK part of ASL?" is in the same vein as "IFT or IIFT?"

Playing the game,

Carl

 

[Carl]

This is not the best approch but it is the approach Schwerpunkt will take regarding ASLSK related material.

Actually this sounds like a very pragmatic and thought out approach. It certainly works to extend SP to the largest audience possible which sounds to be your goal.

Carl

 

[M Faulkner]

If they look like an ASL board, are the same size of an ASL board, and have a hexagonal grid system like an ASL board, then they must be an ASL board. [or is it a duck? :hmmm:]

Just because they do not have all the different terrain types on them doesn't mean they are not useful as an "ASL" board.

 

[kdalton]

It is my understanding that we at MMP are in the midst of designing ASL scenarios using the starter kit boards.

 

[Aries]

?????

"I will say that $18-$20 for an official ASL/ASLSK product is not a bad deal. I will use the extra counters to replace my worn ones. The ASLSK rules are useless to me. I have absolutely no interest in them and have not/will not even bother to read them. I can teach a newbie faster myself. The value of the ASLSK (rules)is for newbies who will self-teach themselves and their freinds to play."

So you bought an ASL Starter Kit, just for boards you are not thrilled with just for a few counters and you have no real interest in the rules, and plan to teach a new player YOUR way all the same?

Are you crazy, nuts, or just weird Evan?

I mean, the ASL Starter was made for newbies right?
And the only reason for a veteran to buy one is to use it with a newbie right?
So buying one just for some counters, and actually NOT planning to use the rules, that sounds like you just took a copy out of circulation that might have aided a newbie that might have had a chance of being an opponent for you.

Are you nuts?

Yeah sure anyone can buy MMPs products blah blah blah.

But, I was there all through this game's market history. And nothing is more perplexing than the rabid collector just gotta have it if it has the ASL logo on it type.

I hope you are at least going to offer the rules you don't have any interest in, to someone that might actually benefit from them. Not that you are obligated in any fashion.

"I do not like change"

I dunno Evan, you seem pretty willing to buy virtually anything no matter if you need it or not.

 

[M Faulkner]

It is my understanding that we at MMP are in the midst of designing ASL scenarios using the starter kit boards.

Well, there you go. That settles it then. :clap:

 

[Gunner Scott]

Guys-

I would not get to slap happy about the new boards because MMP has not even published the new boards yet. Best thing to see is what MMP plans to knock out for ASL in the future and if the current state of things is any indicator; dont expect anything new from MMP for ASL for a very long time.

As for SP and using the ASLSK boards for a few of thier scenarios, well I guess I wont be buying SP11 since I dont have ASLSK 1. Different strokes for different folks.

what a cluster f@#!k'ed hobby this is.


Scott

 

[M Faulkner]

So you bought an ASL Starter Kit, just for boards you are not thrilled with just for a few counters and you have no real interest in the rules, and plan to teach a new player YOUR way all the same?

Are you crazy, nuts, or just weird Evan?

I mean, the ASL Starter was made for newbies right?
And the only reason for a veteran to buy one is to use it with a newbie right?
So buying one just for some counters, and actually NOT planning to use the rules, that sounds like you just took a copy out of circulation that might have aided a newbie that might have had a chance of being an opponent for you.

Are you nuts?

Yeah sure anyone can buy MMPs products blah blah blah.

But, I was there all through this game's market history. And nothing is more perplexing than the rabid collector just gotta have it if it has the ASL logo on it type.

No, Evan isn't nuts, crazy, or even weird. If the statistics were available, I think you will find that a large percentage of the initial ASLSKs bought were done so by veteran players.


I bought one for the boards also. I know of at least three other people who bought it, even though they were veterans with the complete system and I doubt they plan to read/give the rules away or use the counters.

just my $.02

 

[purdyrc]

My Opinion on the ASLSK

I bought the ASL Starter Kit and it got me into the full game. I had played SL back in the 80's but wasn't keen on shelling out all that money to graduate up to the varsity game.

However, after I got the SK, I was hooked (limited though the rules were). The point is, it got me into the game system and now, thanks to a combination of MMP and E-Bay, I have a lot of the core modules and the full rule book.

Therefore, I would argue that it is a part of the official system, even if it's purpose is only to serve as an introduction to the game. I still like playing the SK scenarios as I don't think I'll be ready to tackle the larger, more complex scenarios for a while. The scenarios and boards are very replayable and I like them a lot. More scenarios for the boards would only increase my enjoyment of them and would be welcome indeed.

 

[Aries]

ASLers are clearly among the more wealthy of wargamers it would seem

Being able to always buy so many expensive ASL items they likely don't really need and all

 

[Moly]

I'm not wealthy, but I'm *rich* with ASL stuff. 'Course, the kids don't have shoes...

 

[zgrose]

As for SP and using the ASLSK boards for a few of thier scenarios, well I guess I wont be buying SP11 since I dont have ASLSK 1. Different strokes for different folks.

what a cluster f@#!k'ed hobby this is.

You don't want to play the other scenarios since there is one you can't play? Isn't that cutting off your head to spite your nose?

Besides $20 for 2 boards sounds like a pretty reasonable price. Would be $24 for 2 mounted boards or $10 for 2 unmounted ones according the MMP site. The extra counters and dice are the nice freebie.

 

[zgrose]

No, I do not consider them to be part of the main ASL unless they are available from MMP for separate purchase. Otherwise, you are going to require that longtime players invest $20*4 = $80 in starter kits just to get the boards – with the rest of the material being useless to them.

I'm confused, why do you need 4 starters?