Star & Crescent: Adding Vehicles & Modifying Scenarios

davegruenbaum

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I have attempted to build an M-48 Israeli Mod and an M-60 for TSATC but can't seem to access it in the revised Database i created. Any suggestions as to what i might be doing incorrectly? i am only trying to create the vehicles in the .veh database, not build an icon.

the reason for adding these units is because the Israelis used upgunned M-48s which they had modified by replacing the 90mm cannon with the 105mm standard, and had some M-60s.

Dr. George W. Gawrych's study, "The 1973 Arab-Israeli War: The Albatross of Decisive Victory", shows an Israeli M-48 tank on page 48 which clearly has the 105mm cannon, easily distinguished from the 90mm by lacking the muzzle brake of the 90mm, with the large bore evacuator in the midsection of the gun tube.

Page 52 has a photo of three destroyed Israeli tanks, and although i cannot be sure of the one on the left, the center tank is an M-60 and the one on the right is the Israeli Mod M-48.

When i went through the Armor Officer Advanced Course in 1972 we discussed the Israeli Mod as the basis for the M-48A5, which the U.S. Army created by replacing the 90mm with the 105mm, just as the Israelis had done. the Israelis did what the original designers of the M-48 had intended: when the 90mm was outgunned, it could be replaced by a larger cannon; the turret ring of the M-48 was based on the anticipation that the Army would have to go to larger cannon in the future.

so TSATC's database needs the M-48 Israeli Mod as one of the vehicles, and the Schovach Yonim scenario should have the M-48/90mm tanks replaced by M-48 Israeli Mods (M-48A5). The "Tiran" tanks should probably be replaced by M-60s (M-60 basic or A1, not the later A3s with the improved targeting system and performance (from a better and more powerful engine).
 

Gary

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Dave,

The databases that ship with the ProSim simulations are protected. To make modifications to the database that will be saved you have to make a copy of the database and rename it.
 

CPangracs

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davegruenbaum said:
I have attempted to build an M-48 Israeli Mod and an M-60 for TSATC but can't seem to access it in the revised Database i created. Any suggestions as to what i might be doing incorrectly? i am only trying to create the vehicles in the .veh database, not build an icon.

the reason for adding these units is because the Israelis used upgunned M-48s which they had modified by replacing the 90mm cannon with the 105mm standard, and had some M-60s.

Dr. George W. Gawrych's study, "The 1973 Arab-Israeli War: The Albatross of Decisive Victory", shows an Israeli M-48 tank on page 48 which clearly has the 105mm cannon, easily distinguished from the 90mm by lacking the muzzle brake of the 90mm, with the large bore evacuator in the midsection of the gun tube.

Page 52 has a photo of three destroyed Israeli tanks, and although i cannot be sure of the one on the left, the center tank is an M-60 and the one on the right is the Israeli Mod M-48.

When i went through the Armor Officer Advanced Course in 1972 we discussed the Israeli Mod as the basis for the M-48A5, which the U.S. Army created by replacing the 90mm with the 105mm, just as the Israelis had done. the Israelis did what the original designers of the M-48 had intended: when the 90mm was outgunned, it could be replaced by a larger cannon; the turret ring of the M-48 was based on the anticipation that the Army would have to go to larger cannon in the future.

so TSATC's database needs the M-48 Israeli Mod as one of the vehicles, and the Schovach Yonim scenario should have the M-48/90mm tanks replaced by M-48 Israeli Mods (M-48A5). The "Tiran" tanks should probably be replaced by M-60s (M-60 basic or A1, not the later A3s with the improved targeting system and performance (from a better and more powerful engine).
Gary is correct about creating a new database from the old one.

It's funny you should mention the vehicles, Dave, because what you point out is a major design consideration in a game with the scope of The Star and the Crescent. To minimize the size of the database, I had to pick and choose vehicles to be represented due to the shear numbers of modified vehicles on BOTH sides of the conflict, as well as the use of captured vehicles against their former owners!

I made the decision to represent specific armor types against other specific armor types to reduce confusion. In addition, there are no definitive sources of exact equipment types for each and every engagement. For many (most) of my scenarios, I used Chaim Herzog's "Arab-Israeli Wars" as a reference. Specific tank versions are rarely mentioned.

Many of the "mods" you mentioned were not fielded in significant numbers throughout the Israeli army until AFTER the Yom Kippur wars, and there were not, from my readings, any "pure" units with these tanks at all at the beginning of the war, also known as "Shovach Yonim".

Another example of this is the Avalon Hill game "The Arab-Israeli Wars", which mentions M60's only for Israel and T-55's only for the Arabs, and no mention of M-48's, A5s or otherwise. HOWEVER, another source I used shows the Arabs had BMP's and T-62's pressed into service during the push across the Suez.

So, who is right? Who is wrong? Without a definitive source, I can only make decisions on what would provide for a good scenario, as there is truly no way to represent everything that was really involved due to design and computing specs, as these scenarios must also run on the lowest-end machines possible to satisfy the largest number of gamers. I would also suggest that you peruse the included database for some of the vehicles you mentioned, as I included many vehicles that aren't even in the scenarios!

What you have outlined here, Dave is the reason the ATF series is, in my mind, the greatest wargaming value! You can do whatever you want with the game when it comes to modification! You can make your own decisions on what should or shouldn't be in any of the scenarios and design them the way YOU want.:)

I value the information you have presented as a resource for the gaming community, and I encourage you to mod TSATC as much as you want and share it with all of us! I love many of the modded and scenarios the community have created, and if you have resources that identify specific equipment, that's even better!

Best of luck to you, Dave, and if you ever want to talk Arab-Israeli wars or if you need more help modding, don't hesitate!
 
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CPangracs

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Just wanted to add another note or two. The Magach 6A is the M60 tank you were describing, and IS in this database.

Here is an excerpt from Globalsecurity.org on the M48/M60 Magach variants:

Shortly after that war these tanks were fitted with a 105mm gun (same as on the Centurion MBT), and more tanks were purchased from the US. The M-48s were used mainly in the Sinai and on the Suez Canal, against the Egyptians in the long War of Attrition that began in 1968.

During the 1973 Yom Kippur War the US sent Israel it's newest tank - the M-60. These were pressed to service during the fighting, replacing many of the M-48s lost in combat. In the 1970's the M-60 (A1 and A3 variants) became the mainstay of the IDF's armor corps. They were upgraded with the new reactive armor cells, improved fire control systems etc
and this about the M48 Series used by the IDF:

Magach 3
US-made M48A1 and M48A2 Patton tanks were modified by IDF's Ordnance Corps. This upgrade included 105mm L7 gun, M1/Sherman/Urdan cupola (later only Urdan cupola), AVDS 1790a diesel engine, CD-850-6 auto transmission and modern communications system. These tanks were the backbone of armored forces in the Six-day War (1967), Yom Kippur War (1973), and Peace for Galille Operation.

Magach 5
US M48A5 tanks, during the late 1970's Israel received 150 M48A5 tanks from US. Magach 3 and Mahach 5 tanks were fitted with Blazer armour (ERA).
There IS a Magach 5A, which is an M48A5, in the TSATC database. I think they are in a scenario somewhere.

As I stated in the previous post, the shear magnitude of different equipment types used during the last 50 years in the middle east forces a game designer to either add every single piece, or choose that which gives a good representation and go from there. I chose the latter.

Thanks for your interest in TSATC and an opportunity to explain some of the choices I made during the design of The Star and the Crescent!

Curt
 

davegruenbaum

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Magach 3!

Thanks, Curt, for the info, and thank you Gary - i did miss a step in creating a new vehicle database.

The Magach 3 would have been the Israeli mod, and i had never heard that name or run across that information before.

i am cross-checking OB and equipment info from TSATC with my board games and the late COL Dupuy's "Elusive Victory".

dave gruenbaum
 

CPangracs

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davegruenbaum said:
Thanks, Curt, for the info, and thank you Gary - i did miss a step in creating a new vehicle database.

The Magach 3 would have been the Israeli mod, and i had never heard that name or run across that information before.

i am cross-checking OB and equipment info from TSATC with my board games and the late COL Dupuy's "Elusive Victory".

dave gruenbaum
IMO, this is a very interesting time period for new weapons - I like to refer to it as a testing ground for some of our armor that was never tested in combat by the US! ;)

Seriously, though, I would love to find THE definitive source on the Yom Kippur or any other war pre-1980. The info is just so disparate.

You mentioned Dr. Gawrych's book, and I should have used it for the Sinai, as I DID use his book on the Golan. BTW, CSI Press is just downstairs from my office if you need anything you can't find, and that's NOT restricted to Arab-Israeli stuff!

I guess I just wanted to use a variety of sources so I can catch Heck from EVERYONE! :D
 
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davegruenbaum

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Samuel Katz notes in his "Israeli Tank Battles", Arms & Armour, 1988, that the Israelis are very sensitive about unit IDs, and frequently used the first name or nickname of the commander to ID the unit (sounds like the Confederate Army's use of the commander to designate the unit). His breakout of units is:

North (Syrian Front)

"Raful" Ugda - R. Eitan
7th Armored Bde - Col ben-Gal
188th 'Barak' Bde - Col ben-Shoham

"Musa" Ugda - M. Peled
9th Reserve Armored Bde - Col ben-Porat
4th Reserve Armored - Col Hadar
205th Res Armored - Col Yossi Peled
70th Res Armored - Col Gordon

"Laner" Ugda - Dan Laner
17th Reserve Armored Bde - Col Sarig
679th Res Armored - Col Uri Orr


South (Suez Front)

"Albert"/"Kalman" after 13 Oct - MG A. Mandler/MG Kalman Magen
401st Armored Bde - Dan Shomron (M-48 Israeli Mods w/105mm guns)
8th Armored Bde - Arieh Dayan
Harel - Col Bar-Am

"Bren" Ugda - Bren Adan
460th Armored Bde - Amir (equipped with Centurions)
217th Reserve Armored - Natan 'Natke' Nir (equipped with Centurions)
500th Reserve Armored - Keren

"Arik" ("Hawk"?) Ugda - Ariel 'Arik' Sharon
14th Armored Bde - Reshef
Haim - Erez (equipped with "Pattons", probably M-48 Israeli Mods, not M-60s)
600th Reserve Armored - Raviv

"Kalman"/"Sasson" Ugda - BG K. Magen, succeeded by BG Yitzak Sasson
Tzvi - Col Tzvi Rom
Koach (Force) Gonen - Col Yoel Gonen (equipped in part with PT-76s, remainder with Ti-67s)
11th Res Armored - Aharon


Frank Aker, in his "October 1973: The Arab-Israeli War", Archon, 1985, depicts an idealized Ugda as having two tank battalions (HQ = 2 tanks & APCs), each with four companies, each with 9-12 tanks, and 3 tanks per tank platoon. He notes that by the second week of the October War the 4th tank company (if there was one) was replaced by a mech infantry company; this was still inadequate, so by the end of the fighting each brigade had additional infantry attached to it.

my prior research on the war had primarily been on the specific tanks, and then at the ugda down to battalion level, to assess the units of the various board games i had. "The Star & the Crescent" is so detailed that i'm drilling down to the company & platoon levels, which i had not done before.

what is interesting about Aker's idealized TO&E is that the Israelis must have been operating forces along the Suez at only about 60% strength, since Dr. Gawrych makes mention several times in Chapter 5, of Israeli tank battalions having only 25 tanks!
 

CPangracs

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In addition, those tanks were fairly distant from the canal, which allowed the Egyptians to get a decent-sized force across at several locations before they could get into a position to support the Bar-Lev fortifications. IF the order to put "Pigeon Loft" into effect had come even 30-45 minutes sooner, the war would have been MUCH shorter,...at least in the south!

If you haven't, I suggest you read Chaim Herzog's "The Arab Israeli Wars". 1982, for an excellent perspective with anecdotes from and on the commanders on both sides of the conflict.

I'm very happy you are enjoying the depth of the game - it was an engrossing game to make!

Curt
 

Pat Proctor

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I also heartily recommend Herzog's "The Arab Israeli Wars". It's a great read.
 
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