von Marwitz
Forum Guru
In a recent game the question came up if certain ways to stack units are legal by the ASLRB, if they are generally accepted conventions or merely widespread habits.
I'd like to have your take on this. Please have a look at the illustration below:
Figure 1:
Normal unconcealed stack.
Unconcealed stack "hiding" leader and/or SW beneath a unit not carrying anything.
In VASL if there exists no right of stack inspection yet, say after setup but before game start, a HIP concealment counter is placed beneath the top unit to make premature stack inspection impossible, yet, at the same time, not distorting the stack's height because the HIP concealment counter will not be seen by the opponent.
Normal stack with a broken unit and its DM counter on top.
Normal stack with a broken units and its DM counter at the bottom. This is more rarely seen. But as there may be stacks with a pinned unit and another one which is CX, one can argue that it is not possible to put all the function counters on top anyway. In the given case, it is no problem, as the entire stack is unconcealed and stack inspection is possible to clear any issues.
A concealed stack with a broken and DM unit at the bottom.
This way of stacking is certainly problematic. If one does not actually remember, that there is a broken and DM unit at the bottom and thus maybe does not ask for an existing right of inspection, the height of the stack is distorted by the DM counter (which cannot be seen looking at the top of the stack) and the impression might arise that the broken unit is actually concealed.
As broken units may not be concealed, I would argue that this way of stacking is illegal by the rules. It conceivably could be ok when playing VASL because on a mouse-over, the stack would expand and the brokie would show (provided that the function to expand stacks on mouse-over is enabled). So my take would be:
A concealed stack with a broken unit at the bottom but the DM counter on the top of the stack.
I don't think that this way is possible, as per A10.62 the DM counter needs to be placed on the broken unit. Thus
Addendum:
In the above illustration, playing with VASL poses no problem as the CX and Pin counters will not display as concealed on a mouse-over.
But how do you actually handle such a situation with cardboard?
Stack inspection is NA due to all units being concealed. But function counters do not become concealed. As a result, the height of the stack appears distorted (i.e. 2 counters too high, or rather as you can't inspect, the two function counters may appear as units or SW).
von Marwitz
I'd like to have your take on this. Please have a look at the illustration below:
Figure 1:
Normal unconcealed stack.
- Definitively legal way to stack.
- Commonly accepted way of stacking.
- Widespread habit.
Unconcealed stack "hiding" leader and/or SW beneath a unit not carrying anything.
In VASL if there exists no right of stack inspection yet, say after setup but before game start, a HIP concealment counter is placed beneath the top unit to make premature stack inspection impossible, yet, at the same time, not distorting the stack's height because the HIP concealment counter will not be seen by the opponent.
- Definitively legal way to stack (inclusive of the HIP "?" counter in case of VASL).
- Commonly accepted way of stacking.
- Widespread habit.
Normal stack with a broken unit and its DM counter on top.
- Definitively legal way to stack.
- Commonly accepted way of stacking.
- Widespread habit.
Normal stack with a broken units and its DM counter at the bottom. This is more rarely seen. But as there may be stacks with a pinned unit and another one which is CX, one can argue that it is not possible to put all the function counters on top anyway. In the given case, it is no problem, as the entire stack is unconcealed and stack inspection is possible to clear any issues.
- Legal way to stack.
- Accepted, though unusual way of stacking.
- Not a widespread habit.
A concealed stack with a broken and DM unit at the bottom.
This way of stacking is certainly problematic. If one does not actually remember, that there is a broken and DM unit at the bottom and thus maybe does not ask for an existing right of inspection, the height of the stack is distorted by the DM counter (which cannot be seen looking at the top of the stack) and the impression might arise that the broken unit is actually concealed.
As broken units may not be concealed, I would argue that this way of stacking is illegal by the rules. It conceivably could be ok when playing VASL because on a mouse-over, the stack would expand and the brokie would show (provided that the function to expand stacks on mouse-over is enabled). So my take would be:
- Illegal way to stack when using cardboard, possibly ok under certain circumstances when using VASL.
- Not accepted when using cardboard because illegal, probably not widely accepted when using VASL with mouse-over enabled.
- Definitively rarely seen in VASL, I have never encountered a player using this way by habit.
A concealed stack with a broken unit at the bottom but the DM counter on the top of the stack.
I don't think that this way is possible, as per A10.62 the DM counter needs to be placed on the broken unit. Thus
- Illegal way to stack.
- Not accepted because illegal.
- Illegal, so no habit by anyone.
Addendum:
In the above illustration, playing with VASL poses no problem as the CX and Pin counters will not display as concealed on a mouse-over.
But how do you actually handle such a situation with cardboard?
Stack inspection is NA due to all units being concealed. But function counters do not become concealed. As a result, the height of the stack appears distorted (i.e. 2 counters too high, or rather as you can't inspect, the two function counters may appear as units or SW).
von Marwitz