SSR in A27 King's Castle

Michael R

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The scenario has this SSR about the large board 6 building.

Stacking limits in building 6N4 are one squad-equivalent per hex. Over-stacking penalties apply to each location in a hex in which this is violated.

This building has square stairwells, so normally three locations per building hex. If the stacking limit is one squad-equivalent per hex, that means one is not permitted to put units in every location of the hex without suffering a penalty. This seems really odd to me. I searched for errata and found none.

I cannot imagine what kind of building could generate this kind of Special Rule.

Your thoughts?
 

asloser

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Well, if you read A5 you'll note one can only overstack locations, not hexes. Of course most hexes are just one location so in many cases hex=location but still stacking limits exist for locations.

IMO it should read location. Official answer can be obtained from Perry of course.
 

Honosbinda

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The scenario has this SSR about the large board 6 building.

Stacking limits in building 6N4 are one squad-equivalent per hex. Over-stacking penalties apply to each location in a hex in which this is violated.

This building has square stairwells, so normally three locations per building hex. If the stacking limit is one squad-equivalent per hex, that means one is not permitted to put units in every location of the hex without suffering a penalty. This seems really odd to me. I searched for errata and found none.

I cannot imagine what kind of building could generate this kind of Special Rule.

Your thoughts?
The SSR are absolutely clear and indeed emphasize with italics that the stacking limit is per hex and apply to each location at each level. So no, it's not some kind of typo. It's deliberate.

It's beyond odd. There isn't a reason for this that makes any sense. One could make the case that the stacking limit could be one per location, but not one per hex.

It's obviously a rule designed to give the attacker a chance in hell of assaulting that castle. Without it, the Americans would get gunned down, as the Germans load up the sides of the building the Americans are trying to take through that moat and waste them with 30-36 PBF fire shots from above in staircase hexes allowing firegroups up and down and sideways. That's what this rule is trying to mitigate. It would be more realistic to dis-allow multi-location FG from the castle, but even then the Germans could stack a nice kill group in one location.

This SSR makes makes this scenario one of the worst designs I've ever scene, with a gimmicky play balancing mechanism that is supposed to make the scenario fun, which it's not. Hardly anything involving board 6 is any fun. Especially for 12 turns of gameplay, yawn and double yawn.

It's also a dog on ROAR, with 18-8 plays Americans winning (due to that SSR, what else? Whose gonna give the Germans the balance -- the entire lower floor fortified?! oh and in the balance provision, more emphasis on the stacking limit per hex, because they want us to get it -- the stacking limit is per hex! ).

Only 26 plays for a scenario that's been around since the 1991 ASL Annual it was published in. People were desperate for scenarios in those days and so we got this kind of stuff sometimes.

I'd pick something else to play in 2020-21! Sorry, I know you weren't asking for that kind of advice.
 

Robin Reeve

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It is a castle, with very few and very narrow openings, so the SSR limits the number of units which could fire from a given hex.
At least, that is how I always read the rationale behind the SSR.
And I thus never found it odd.
 

Honosbinda

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It is a castle, with very few and very narrow openings, so the SSR limits the number of units which could fire from a given hex.
At least, that is how I always read the rationale behind the SSR.
And I thus never found it odd.
How does this in any way explain that a friendly MMC unit on the second floor of the castle is going to cause a +1 CC DRM to a friendly MMC on the ground floor? And vice versa? While not doing the same thing to an enemy who doesn't happen to be positioned in the same way? Narrow and few openings are only proximal to the situation at hand, not two floors above or below.

I think your rational justifies a stacking limit of 1 unit per location, but not one unit per hex. If the designer had SSR'd, for example, that locations on the first and/or second floor have no windows (such as you seem to posit) and thus no fire attacks are allowed outside the castle, that's something I could live with and be a slightly more interesting way to mitigate the Board 6 castle's citadel effectiveness.

Or, treat every such location as a cellar, with inherent firepower halved and only one SW allowed to fire out. But RB had only come out the year before this scenario was already on the production schedule for the 91 Annual, even if they had thought of this more logical innovation.
 

Robin Reeve

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I can live with that SSR.
If you don't stack more than one squad per hex, all is fine.
<shrug>
 

lightspeed

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[lots deleted]
Hardly anything involving board 6 is any fun. [lots deleted]
Marc,

I'm curious: Is there something about board 6 that you don't like? If so, what?

Full disclosure: I have never liked board 6 myself, and thus generally have avoided scenarios
that use it. Sadly, I cannot put my finger on why. A friend asked me and all I could come up with
was "I don't know, I just don't like the look."

Therefore, I'm curious about your thinking.

indy
 

Michael Dorosh

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It's a castle with thick stone walls, and probably few windows. There would be no way to coordinate an entire platoon shooting from inside to the outside in such a building so the easy fix is to limit stacking.

14903
 

Robin Reeve

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Marc,

I'm curious: Is there something about board 6 that you don't like? If so, what?

Full disclosure: I have never liked board 6 myself, and thus generally have avoided scenarios
that use it. Sadly, I cannot put my finger on why. A friend asked me and all I could come up with
was "I don't know, I just don't like the look."

Therefore, I'm curious about your thinking.

indy
Board 6 is scaled very wrong.
You have the impression of a mansion in a park, but each tree is actually a 40 m wide woods and the mansion is 200 m wide.
The alley is past 400 m long.
 

Michael Dorosh

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14904

Google tells me this is France's largest chateau. The façade appears to be 100 metres wide.... so the board 6 building is twice as large as the biggest chageau in the country.

Then again, Design for Effect. :)
 

Michael Dorosh

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14906

This is the Chateau de Quesnoy near Conde-Folie (not to be confused with Chateau le Quesnoy further south). I believe the first appearance of Board 6 was in the Crescendo of Doom scenario set here. The size of the chateau can be discerned by comparing the (European) cars.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Full disclosure: I have never liked board 6 myself, and thus generally have avoided scenarios
that use it. Sadly, I cannot put my finger on why. A friend asked me and all I could come up with
was "I don't know, I just don't like the look."
I thought Strayer's Strays was ok and played it relatively recently with ASL rules. Otherwise, I played Chateau de Quesnoy in the mid 80s as part of COD. All I remember about it is who my opponent was, and that I forgot to reveal my HIP French 75 when he moved his Germans through the woods and later had to remove the gun from the game as compensation. When the map was brand new it had more appeal. I liked the "look" of the board but as pointed out above, the chateau is unrealistically big, which is part of the aesthetic. Then again, almost all the buildings on the maps are oversize if viewed from a realistic lens, particularly on Board 1.
 

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I thought Strayer's Strays was ok and played it relatively recently with ASL rules. Otherwise, I played Chateau de Quesnoy in the mid 80s as part of COD. All I remember about it is who my opponent was, and that I forgot to reveal my HIP French 75 when he moved his Germans through the woods and later had to remove the gun from the game as compensation. When the map was brand new it had more appeal. I liked the "look" of the board but as pointed out above, the chateau is unrealistically big, which is part of the aesthetic. Then again, almost all the buildings on the maps are oversize if viewed from a realistic lens, particularly on Board 1.
Then again all the airfields are puny scale wise.
 

Honosbinda

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It's a castle with thick stone walls, and probably few windows. There would be no way to coordinate an entire platoon shooting from inside to the outside in such a building so the easy fix is to limit stacking.

View attachment 14903
An easy fix is not necessarily a good one, and in this case is a lazy one. This designer probably nuked pizza while scribbling up the SSR. ;)
 

Honosbinda

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Marc,

I'm curious: Is there something about board 6 that you don't like? If so, what?

Full disclosure: I have never liked board 6 myself, and thus generally have avoided scenarios
that use it. Sadly, I cannot put my finger on why. A friend asked me and all I could come up with
was "I don't know, I just don't like the look."

Therefore, I'm curious about your thinking.

indy
Board 6 is scaled very wrong.
You have the impression of a mansion in a park, but each tree is actually a 40 m wide woods and the mansion is 200 m wide.
The alley is past 400 m long.
Indy, It just dominates the scene and the whole courtyard effect at weird angles is annoying to me. What can I say, it's visually unappealing and strange SSRs are needed to tone down its citadel effect.

Board 6 is okay as long as the chateau from hell is not the objective.

Perhaps Robin nailed it on the head, the place is huge, Versailles is 400 meters in facade and this one is half that. That's the largest chateau in France, by the way.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Perhaps Robin nailed it on the head, the place is huge, Versailles is 400 meters in facade and this one is half that. That's the largest chateau in France, by the way.
Versailles is a palace, not a chateau.... one is an official residence, the other is a country house. You can microwave pizza in a country house, but not a palace. ;-)
 

Honosbinda

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Versailles is a palace, not a chateau.... one is an official residence, the other is a country house. You can microwave pizza in a country house, but not a palace. ;-)
It's an oversized château called a palace because a king lived there. A rose is a rose is a rose whether or not it's rammed up the king's nethers and c'est la même chose pour le château, mon vielle.

I don't think the king ate much pizza, microwaved or not. Pizza was invented in 1889. ?
 

Michael Dorosh

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It's an oversized château called a palace because a king lived there. A rose is a rose is a rose whether or not it's rammed up the king's nethers and c'est la même chose pour le château, mon vielle.

I don't think the king ate much pizza, microwaved or not. Pizza was invented in 1889. ?
Nonsense.

 
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