Sry to Ask - but can a Vehicle setup at game start in a Stone Building?

macrobo

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Hi All

We are playing DftB117 and my esteemed opponent has setup both T34s in the stone buildings - Making TH an extra +3 and occupation help VCs

:)
Never see the tactic before so..
The rule
23.423 GUNS: No weapon depicted on a ⅝” counter may occupy an upper level of a building [EXC: Mortars (23.85); Fortified Building (23.93)]. A non-vehicular weapon on a ⅝” counter may be set up or pushed into a building/rubble only if it is either a small target (C2.271) or an AT/INF Gun that is not a large target. Mortar fire, and MG/Gun attacks vs Aerial targets, are not allowed from a non-rooftop building Location

Hints there is some problem with vehicle being in a building on setup - IS there a better rule or clarification on a QandA?

And if he stops being a static ATG and tries to leave - I think he may have to roll bog for leaving a building ?Yes

Thanks again for the help of the magnificent rules guru's

Cheers

Rob
 

klasmalmstrom

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Yes, a T-34 can set up inside a building. No Bog DR need for leaving a building hex (unless it is a Factory hex).
 

Eagle4ty

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As long as the unit could enter a location during play it is OK for them to set up there (with a few very minor exceptions - e.g. sewers). So yes it is probably accepted.
 

aneil1234

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Yup
sure can
A2.9 A Vehicle can set-up in locations it can enter (Obvs assuming this is a CT fully tracked vehicle we are talking bout so yes T-34 that is BU can)
And they can even do it free of the bog check (assume its been done pre game)
Yes they get +3 to hit DRM against them
But they have their case A Change covered arc penalties doubled. And if they change VCA its a bog check
So a double edged sword IMO
 

von Marwitz

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Imagine that the Stone Building also has a Wall on the hexside. In that case, the vehicle can even select whether it will take the +3 TEM for the Building or the HD status of the wall. Individually for each shot fired vs. it.

von Marwitz
 

macrobo

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Hi

Thanks for the reply

You guys are just making me scared o_O - I may never do my favourite PZIII move - charge up and blow it from behind!!

Rob
 

bendizoid

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Imagine that the Stone Building also has a Wall on the hexside. In that case, the vehicle can even select whether it will take the +3 TEM for the Building or the HD status of the wall. Individually for each shot fired vs. it.

von Marwitz
After each DR or before?
 

Houlie

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I know we were talking T-34s, but I am quite sure open top AFV are prohibited from setting up in a building (unless by SSR, of course).
 

jrv

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I know we were talking T-34s, but I am quite sure open top AFV are prohibited from setting up in a building (unless by SSR, of course).
Yes, per upstream the AFV has to be close-topped to enter a building. By applying the rule that you have to be able to enter the terrain to set up there, only CT AFV can set up in buildings.

JR
 

Jumbo

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NRBH, but a vehicle set up in a (non-Factory) Building must also check to see if it falls into a Cellar, IIRC.
 

jrv

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NRBH, but a vehicle set up in a (non-Factory) Building must also check to see if it falls into a Cellar, IIRC.
No, just the opposite. A unit set up at game start in a building does not roll for bog nor potentially rubble the building nor fall into the cellar.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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A2.9 A Vehicle can set-up in locations it can enter (Obvs assuming this is a CT fully tracked vehicle we are talking bout so yes T-34 that is BU can)
It can even set up CE - as it can enter BU and then go CE while inside the building. Though the T-34s in said scenario are of the RST type - so they probably want to be BU anyway.
 

von Marwitz

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After each DR or before?
"D4.2 HULL DOWN (HD): HD is a term used to describe any situation wherein the LOF to the bottom half of a vehicle is blocked by terrain, making that portion of the target incapable of being hit by Direct Fire ordnance. A vehicle qualifying as a HD target is considered hit by Direct Fire only if that hit result is a turret/upper superstructure hit (C3.9). A HD target may not also claim a Case Q TH DRM but it may claim an in-hex Case Q TH DRM in lieu of HD status. HD status does not apply to a vehicle fired on by Indirect Fire, although the TEM of a wall that would make such a vehicle HD to Direct Fire might count as a reduced TEM for Indirect Fire (see C1.52). A target is never considered HD to any attack unit qualified to attack its Aerial AF."

This is the rule that allows you to choose (on a shot to shot basis). The wording of the rule was changed by an erratum in Journal 6.

In the following thread, Fort says, you have to choose before the shot is taken. I do agree, though I cannot find anything fixing the sequence in the rules.

The following post ist quite illuminating under which circumstances it is more beneficial to claim HD status compared in In-Hex TEM.


von Marwitz
 

Juan SantaX

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Related to that question...

The T34 is allowed to set in the stone building.... it has case A firing penalties doubled, and must take a bog check if it changes its CA... it’s there any DRM to that bog check? It is low pressure and fully-tracked...

Thanks
 

Vinnie

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It only gets a bog check on VCA change.
All standard modifiers apply.
The +4 modifier does not though as it is only for entry.
 

Justiciar

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"D4.2 HULL DOWN (HD): HD is a term used to describe any situation wherein the LOF to the bottom half of a vehicle is blocked by terrain, making that portion of the target incapable of being hit by Direct Fire ordnance. A vehicle qualifying as a HD target is considered hit by Direct Fire only if that hit result is a turret/upper superstructure hit (C3.9). A HD target may not also claim a Case Q TH DRM but it may claim an in-hex Case Q TH DRM in lieu of HD status. HD status does not apply to a vehicle fired on by Indirect Fire, although the TEM of a wall that would make such a vehicle HD to Direct Fire might count as a reduced TEM for Indirect Fire (see C1.52). A target is never considered HD to any attack unit qualified to attack its Aerial AF."

This is the rule that allows you to choose (on a shot to shot basis). The wording of the rule was changed by an erratum in Journal 6.

In the following thread, Fort says, you have to choose before the shot is taken. I do agree, though I cannot find anything fixing the sequence in the rules.

The following post ist quite illuminating under which circumstances it is more beneficial to claim HD status compared in In-Hex TEM.


von Marwitz
I too think the choice is made before the DR.

I think the rule/concept that the choice must be made before the DR is that which applies normally, in that all TH modifiers from the firer and target perspectives are assessed/assigned [EXC: Declaration of Armor Leader]...then the TH DR is made. There is no need for a rule...it is just part and parcel of the inbuilt TH process, ....but this as I see it.
 

bendizoid

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I like it better after the DR, that way you can be +3 and hull down. There other rules that allow choices after the DR is made.
 

Eagle4ty

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I would think the sequence would be something like this:
Shooter: "I'll take an AP shot at that vehicle in the building with the wall around it."
Target: "I'll claim the HD status" (D4.2)
Shooter: "Blam"{rolls TH DR}

To do otherwise I believe violates the intent of the rule and gives the DEFENDER too much lea way on how to resolve the shot based upon knowledge of the DR.
 

Jazz

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Never see the tactic before so..
Never seen it before? Really?

Given the right mix of opposing sides and VC, I pretty much do it at the drop of a hat. In particular it is valuable when a big chunk of the opposing AT resources are SCW that do not spawn Acq.

For the record it also helps against sighting TC by aircraft. It don't stuff the possibility of the Sighting check, it at least it forces them to actually make a roll instead of granting it as a foregone conclusion.
 
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