Spotters and Opportunity Fire

commissar1969

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Gents:

A Concealed Unit is spotting for a mortar. 2 questions:

1) If I Opportunity Fire the mortar, do I have to Opportunity Fire the concealed Spotter as well (i.e. in order to be able to Opportunity Fire in the AFPh)?

2) If the answer to #1 is yes, does the Spotter lose Concealment?
 

Vinnie

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Not certain about 1 but I think he does not need to be designated and can keep rof.
2. Definitely loses concealment if designated Opp Fire.
 

mgmasl

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I think spotters doesn’t lose concealment.. only the mortar if in LOS.. anyway NRBH..
 

Juan SantaX

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I would say no no...

Spoters are an exc in letter C in the concealemt loss/gain table

The one that actually is opp firing is the mortar

IMHO as english speaking people write
 
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Juan SantaX

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If in lLOS and the spotter isnt opp firing, its the mortar

Would it lose concealment if spotting in the prep fire?

IMHO
 

jrv

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If in lLOS and the spotter isnt opp firing, its the mortar

Would it lose concealment if spotting in the prep fire?
No, the Spotter would not lose concealment for using Spotted Fire in the PFPh. But the opportunity fire rules say that concealment is lost, and there are no exceptions there or in the spotted fire rules.

This raises a number of questions. If the MTR is marked with Opp Fire but the spotter is not, can the MTR fire in the AFPh using a Spotter? If so, is a MTR marked with Opportunity Fire penalized for fire in the AFPh when using an unmarked Spotter because the Spotter is not marked?

Must a MTR that has a Spotter always mark its Spotter with Opp Fire when the MTR is marked with Opp Fire? (Likely no, unless the MTR does not have its intended target in LOS)

JR
 

Juan SantaX

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No, the Spotter would not lose concealment for using Spotted Fire in the PFPh. But the opportunity fire rules say that concealment is lost, and there are no exceptions there or in the spotted fire rules.

This raises a number of questions. If the MTR is marked with Opp Fire but the spotter is not, can the MTR fire in the AFPh using a Spotter? If so, is a MTR marked with Opportunity Fire penalized for fire in the AFPh when using an unmarked Spotter because the Spotter is not marked?

Must a MTR that has a Spotter always mark its Spotter with Opp Fire when the MTR is marked with Opp Fire? (Likely no, unless the MTR does not have its intended target in LOS)

JR
If you don’t know the answer I think we have a problem...

I think that you don’t have to mark the spotter with opp fire, as the only firing unit is the mortar... but if you are not sure....

Best
 
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zgrose

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I just sent in a Q&A request because I'm not so sure the Spotter is being designated an Opportunity Firer either.
 

mgmasl

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IMHO Opportunity Fire is equivalent for game purposes to Prep Fire.. if a spotter doesn’t lose concealment by prep firing I think the same when declared as Opp firer..
 

jrv

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IMHO Opportunity Fire is equivalent for game purposes to Prep Fire.. if a spotter doesn’t lose concealment by prep firing I think the same when declared as Opp firer..
At first blush that is a reasonable expectation, but it's not what the rules say. The rules say that if you use Opportunity Fire, you lose concealment when you declare it.

The problem for play is, what happens if the Spotter is a squad with a HMG? It declares it is using Opportunity Fire. If you don't remove concealment because it is a Spotter, can it then fire squad and HMG in the AFPh at full FP without having lost concealment in the PFPh? Even if it is required to make a Spotted Fire attack to retain concealment (an option not mentioned in the rules), Spotted Fire is only use of one SW. Can it fire the HMG too after keeping concealment for being a Spotter? Or its inherent? I don't think you can just say that a Spotter does not lose concealment if it declares Opportunity Fire. You'd have to add a lot more to that unless you want to add a sleaze to Opportunity Fire.

JR
 

mgmasl

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I see your POV. Spotters may have an additional use in next advancing fire. Anyway, this is only the case when the designed spotter is a squad.. A HS or SMC used as spotter may do anything but spotting because being declared as spotter it´s equivalent to use a SW and so no IFP available in next Avd Fire Phase.
 

jrv

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A HS or SMC used as spotter may do anything but spotting because being declared as spotter it´s equivalent to use a SW and so no IFP available in next Avd Fire Phase.
That's not true either. The HS (or leader with SW) Spotter can declare it is using opportunity fire, but there is no requirement that it has to declare it is planning to use Spotted Fire nor to use Spotted Fire. The HS/leader might change its mind when a really, really good target comes up for its inherent/other SW it possesses. You'd have to declare as part of the Opportunity Fire that what you plan to do in the AFPh is use Spotted Fire, and then you might have a rule. As there is no such rule presently, there's nothing to prevent you from changing your mind between the PFPh & the AFPh. What you say is certainly possible as a rule, but as currently written it isn't supported, and if you house rule it in a simple way, you open up opportunities for sleaze. Mind you the opportunities for sleaze are small, but they are there.

JR
 

Juan SantaX

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I think we are rambling a bit... (I use google translator so maybe that’s not the word I want to use)

You can opp fire any unit, with the proper consequences regarding concealment. Even one that it’s also predesignated as a spotter.

But if you use a spotter for a firing mortar, even an opportunity firing mortar, the only one who is firing is the mortar.
So no need to opp fire the spotter, and spotting is no losing concealment activity.
And best of all, zgrose sent a q&a request!!

Best
(imho after reading a7.25, a12.121 & c9.3)
 

The Purist

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Correct me if I am wrong but, for the sake of argument, would an Op firing MTR that loses '?', even if not in LOS of an enemy unit that could strip that '?', simply regrow '?' at the end of the player turn? I can't think of a means by which the non-phasing player could move a unit into position to have the LOS to prevent '?' gain.

If so then part of problem with rule as it is currently written is moot.

Happy to be corrected.

It's still a damned fine question. Pending an answer might it be a quick fix to 'house' rule in that an Op fired spotter/MTR pair are 'locked' into that future action? Still some room for abuse but...
 

jrv

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But if you use a spotter for a firing mortar, even an opportunity firing mortar, the only one who is firing is the mortar.
So no need to opp fire the spotter, and spotting is no losing concealment activity.
The spotter is treated as if using a SW. The spotter is "firing" in some sense. I don't think the spotter could be used in the AFPh if it fired in the PFPh, for instance. It couldn't be used if it did not have capacity to use a SW in the AFPh either, e.g. it was a HS/SMC that fired inherent or another SW.

The remaining question is whether a MTR marked with an Opportunity Fire marker can use a spotter that is not, and if so, can use that spotter without penalty. As an example of "odd behavior" if allowed without penalty, could a designated spotter that was broken but just rallied this turn run up to the lines and direct the MTR this turn? That sounds sleaze to me. But perhaps it is how it is played.

JR
 

mgmasl

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That's not true either. The HS (or leader with SW) Spotter can declare it is using opportunity fire, but there is no requirement that it has to declare it is planning to use Spotted Fire nor to use Spotted Fire. The HS/leader might change its mind when a really, really good target comes up for its inherent/other SW it possesses. You'd have to declare as part of the Opportunity Fire that what you plan to do in the AFPh is use Spotted Fire, and then you might have a rule. As there is no such rule presently, there's nothing to prevent you from changing your mind between the PFPh & the AFPh. What you say is certainly possible as a rule, but as currently written it isn't supported, and if you house rule it in a simple way, you open up opportunities for sleaze. Mind you the opportunities for sleaze are small, but they are there.

JR
Fully agree..

Not marking the spotter and only the mtr create new questions not resolved by the rules .. May move the spotter to change position?.. Is penalized the spotted adv Fire shot?

It looks ASLRB has the right answer.. no exception for spotters. At least the simplest one
 

jrv

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Correct me if I am wrong but, for the sake of argument, would an Op firing MTR that loses '?', even if not in LOS of an enemy unit that could strip that '?', simply regrow '?' at the end of the player turn? I can't think of a means by which the non-phasing player could move a unit into position to have the LOS to prevent '?' gain.
I don't think the concern at this point is the concealment of the MTR. The MTR loses concealment if marked as Opportunity Fire. The questions are around the spotter. Does the spotter have to be marked in order to spot for the MTR without penalty? If so, does the spotter lose concealment?

JR
 

The Purist

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...The remaining question is whether a MTR marked with an Opportunity Fire marker can use a spotter that is not, and if so, can use that spotter without penalty. As an example of "odd behavior" if allowed without penalty, could a designated spotter that was broken but just rallied this turn run up to the lines and direct the MTR this turn? That sounds sleaze to me. But perhaps it is how it is played....
Does C9.3 not say that a spotter must be designated in the PFPh/DFPh, thus making the noted abuse illegal? This would/should also limit abuse by a spotter with a SW.
 

jrv

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Does C9.3 not say that a spotter must be designated in the PFPh/DFPh, thus making the noted abuse illegal? This would/should also limit abuse by a spotter with a SW.
Designating a spotter is a (semi-)permanent thing. Once the spotter is designated, it remains the spotter and a new one cannot be designated until the original is eliminated, broken or captured. Designating a spotter is not part of the typical firing process. Per C9.3, "as long as the Spotter remains in Good Order, the adjacent mortar(s) may fire on any target in the Spotter's LOS." Per the EXC at the end of C9.3, the MTR can use Opportunity Fire and fire in the AFPh if it has a Spotter.

JR
 
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