Spanish Civil War

[Gunner Scott]

Yes I do appreciate what others do for designing themed scenario packs and all, but what I alway dislike is when people show up to a thread and state their research is better then the other guys, that just smacks of elitism. Instead, use a little tack and just say your doing your own thing, no need to slam other peoples hard work, but that seems to be the norm in this hobby unfortunately.


Scott

I think what Fernando and his compadres may by trying to do is to establish a baseline for the capabilities, and characteristics of each major faction (with exceptions based on the front in question). At the moment, there does not appear to be a consensus on how the various participants should be portrayed.

It's not unlike the rework the Finns are undergoing at the moment. Had more time and resources been available back in the day, the Soviets arguably would have a more nuanced (and richer) MMC structure that included second-line troops, and perhaps a lower-order Conscript MMC (3-3-6), at least for the period prior to mid 1942, or thereabouts. They might also have had restrictions on Infantry movement prior to 1941 (i.e. some form of Platoon Movement), and a unique, late-war structure. (Contrast the Russian MMC structure with the Ami squads found in Rising Sun alone!)

That said, I agree with Carl that the best scenarios are the ones that distill the essential flavours of an engagement into a manageable (SSR-light, et. al.) and engaging contest.

It takes all sorts of people to build a house. Some excel at framing. Others enjoy millwork. The best designers are jacks of all trades.

 

[BattleSchool]

Yes I do appreciate what others do for designing themed scenario packs and all, but what I alway dislike is when people show up to a thread and state their research is better then the other guys, that just smacks of elitism. Instead, use a little tack and just say your doing your own thing, no need to slam other peoples hard work, but that seems to be the norm in this hobby unfortunately.


Scott

I see your point, and can see how poopooing previous work on the SCW could be viewed as taking an elitist position.

But I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt here, just as I did when I learned just how poorly the Finns were modelled in ASL. Finnish ASL players have much better access to Finnish (and in some cases Soviet) sources than most ASL players have. I suspect that the Spaniards likewise have a better handle on the SCW than outsiders do. Granted, some Spanish ASL players may have a tough time understanding the motives and actions of various factions, but I think that their input and points of view are too important to ignore.

Subject-matter expertise and elitism may sometimes go hand in hand. But it doen't have to be that way.

 

[clavain]

Not too late to do that Russian HASL with those squad types Chris, what are you waiting for? Get the crew up there to work, for Pete's sake! ;-)

Edit: Oops, rep'd the wrong post, meant to get this one, not your conversation with an imaginary friend..

I think what Fernando and his compadres may by trying to do is to establish a baseline for the capabilities, and characteristics of each major faction (with exceptions based on the front in question). At the moment, there does not appear to be a consensus on how the various participants should be portrayed.

It's not unlike the rework the Finns are undergoing at the moment. Had more time and resources been available back in the day, the Soviets arguably would have a more nuanced (and richer) MMC structure that included second-line troops, and perhaps a lower-order Conscript MMC (3-3-6), at least for the period prior to mid 1942, or thereabouts. They might also have had restrictions on Infantry movement prior to 1941 (i.e. some form of Platoon Movement), and a unique, late-war structure. (Contrast the Russian MMC structure with the Ami squads found in Rising Sun alone!)

That said, I agree with Carl that the best scenarios are the ones that distill the essential flavours of an engagement into a manageable (SSR-light, et. al.) and engaging contest.

It takes all sorts of people to build a house. Some excel at framing. Others enjoy millwork. The best designers are jacks of all trades.

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

Not too late to do that Russian HASL with those squad types Chris, what are you waiting for? Get the crew up there to work, for Pete's sake! ;-)

Edit: Oops, rep'd the wrong post, meant to get this one, not your conversation with an imaginary friend..

Why are you forsaking Pete?

 

[Carln0130]

The interesting thing so far with the reading, and I am only getting started, is that the quality and characteristics do seem to vary greatly with time of the war, units involved and their political motivations. Really a lot here. My initial goal is to find the most module friendly campaign, then zero in on things like unit capabilities from there. Trying to define them across the board, for my purposes, would spread me too thin.

I have a far more limited aim of trying to best define them only in a certain time or place, framed within a given campaign. Now someone trying to do a SCW module, not based on a campaign, but rather giving the whole war and it's participants a good rendering, is another matter, and a different project than what I am after. This is definitely getting interesting. I guess my job not leaving me enough time during the week to play has had one silver lining. It does leave a good time slot for reading and research/design.

Co-operation from the guys who are in Spain and speak/read Spanish would of course be wonderful, because I am limited to what is out in English translation. Not to mention,growing up in the culture gives them a unique perspective on what took place too. Not unlike the knowledge of a local guide.

I think what Fernando and his compadres may by trying to do is to establish a baseline for the capabilities, and characteristics of each major faction (with exceptions based on the front in question). At the moment, there does not appear to be a consensus on how the various participants should be portrayed.

It's not unlike the rework the Finns are undergoing at the moment. Had more time and resources been available back in the day, the Soviets arguably would have a more nuanced (and richer) MMC structure that included second-line troops, and perhaps a lower-order Conscript MMC (3-3-6), at least for the period prior to mid 1942, or thereabouts. They might also have had restrictions on Infantry movement prior to 1941 (i.e. some form of Platoon Movement), and a unique, late-war structure. (Contrast the Russian MMC structure with the Ami squads found in Rising Sun alone!)

That said, I agree with Carl that the best scenarios are the ones that distill the essential flavours of an engagement into a manageable (SSR-light, et. al.) and engaging contest.

It takes all sorts of people to build a house. Some excel at framing. Others enjoy millwork. The best designers are jacks of all trades.

 

[witchbottles]

some more to consider:

Victorious Counterrevolution : The Nationalist Effort in the Spanish Civil War
Author: Seidman, Michael
Publisher: University of Wisconsin Press

Fighting for Franco : International Volunteers in Nationalist Spain During the Spanish Civil War, 1936-39
Author: Keene, Judith
Publisher: Hambledon Continuum
Date Published: 02/2007

Renegades: Canadians in the Spanish Civil War
Author: Petrou, Michael
Publisher: UBC Press
Date Published: 2008

To Tilt at Windmills : A Memoir of the Spanish Civil War
Author: Thomas, Fred
Publisher: Michigan State University Press
Date Published: 08/1996

KRL, Jon H

 

[Carln0130]

The third choice is en route as we speak. I do have something on the Nationalist Volunteers coming too. Different title though. Right now I have close to a dozen books to wade through. So it is read and then take stock time.

Keep the cards and letters coming though. Once done with this batch I will doubtless search for more. With many of these books costing all of one penny on Amazon, the shipping looks worse than the book price half the time. The used section looks like quite a bargain so far. Of course they have not arrived yet, so hopefully, they are in reasonably good shape. First time using Amazon for used books here.

Thanks for the additional suggestions.

some more to consider:

Victorious Counterrevolution : The Nationalist Effort in the Spanish Civil War
Author: Seidman, Michael
Publisher: University of Wisconsin Press

Fighting for Franco : International Volunteers in Nationalist Spain During the Spanish Civil War, 1936-39
Author: Keene, Judith
Publisher: Hambledon Continuum
Date Published: 02/2007

Renegades: Canadians in the Spanish Civil War
Author: Petrou, Michael
Publisher: UBC Press
Date Published: 2008

To Tilt at Windmills : A Memoir of the Spanish Civil War
Author: Thomas, Fred
Publisher: Michigan State University Press
Date Published: 08/1996

KRL, Jon H

 

[clavain]

Man, think of all the new precision dice opportunities... :devious:

The third choice is en route as we speak. I do have something on the Nationalist Volunteers coming too. Different title though. Right now I have close to a dozen books to wade through. So it is read and then take stock time.

Keep the cards and letters coming though. Once done with this batch I will doubtless search for more. With many of these books costing all of one penny on Amazon, the shipping looks worse than the book price half the time. The used section looks like quite a bargain so far. Of course they have not arrived yet, so hopefully, they are in reasonably good shape. First time using Amazon for used books here.

Thanks for the additional suggestions.

 

[witchbottles]

The third choice is en route as we speak. I do have something on the Nationalist Volunteers coming too. Different title though. Right now I have close to a dozen books to wade through. So it is read and then take stock time.

Keep the cards and letters coming though. Once done with this batch I will doubtless search for more. With many of these books costing all of one penny on Amazon, the shipping looks worse than the book price half the time. The used section looks like quite a bargain so far. Of course they have not arrived yet, so hopefully, they are in reasonably good shape. First time using Amazon for used books here.

Thanks for the additional suggestions.

a tip for very hard to find / expensive in the US items......

We've several dedicated ASLrs here on GS in the EU and in AUS/ NZ , and in the Southeast Asian area.

I once found a book written in dutch and published exclusively in the Netherlands by finding a copy of it on the german version of amazon; and having a wargamer in Germany buy if for me and post it to me. The U.S. cost of the one used copy in the North american Continent was "$385.00 USD + $12.99 S and H. The final cost on my credit card charge after it was converted to Euros was $117.00 USD. Postage cost me an additional $35.00 USD, for a net cost of less than half what it would have cost me here.

We have good "people resources" here. sometimes it can pay off well.

Don't overlook the "doing it backwards" idea.

KRL, Jon H

 

[Srynerson]

I once found a book written in dutch and published exclusively in the Netherlands by finding a copy of it on the german version of amazon; and having a wargamer in Germany buy if for me and post it to me. The U.S. cost of the one used copy in the North american Continent was "$385.00 USD + $12.99 S and H. The final cost on my credit card charge after it was converted to Euros was $117.00 USD. Postage cost me an additional $35.00 USD, for a net cost of less than half what it would have cost me here.

We have good "people resources" here. sometimes it can pay off well.

Don't overlook the "doing it backwards" idea.

KRL, Jon H

Was the shipping cheaper doing it that way than just having it shipped straight from Amazon.de or does Amazon.de not ship outside of Europe? (I've ordered books from Amazon.co.uk and Amazon.fr and just had them sent straight to me in the US.)

I'll also note that for English-language used books it can be worth it to search on-line for used bookstores in India, Myanmar, and other developing countries with substantial English-speaking populations. Last year I bought a used book from the Myanmar Book Centre (http://www.myanmarbook.com/) for $29, plus $6 shipping, and whatever the currency conversion fee was on PayPal (a few dollars) where the only copy of that title seemingly available in the US (per Amazon, AbeBooks, and Alibris at least) was going for $153.99 plus at minimum $3.99 shipping via Amazon. I would think that for Spanish-language used books a similar strategy might work (i.e., look for used bookstores in Mexico, Argentina, etc.).

 

[clavain]

My experience has been that the "national" Amazons do not ship outside their borders (I believe even amazon.com will not ship to Canada, which is silly), although I am not sure how broad that policy is (and it may have changed since I last tried). The EU (excluding Britain/British Isles?) may be different. This was certainly the case I have encountered with amazon.co.uk, which is too bad, as most British history books are available there at least a year before they are published (usually under a different title and often with a different, yet affiliated, publisher) in Canada or the US. Solution: abebooks.com

Was the shipping cheaper doing it that way than just having it shipped straight from Amazon.de or does Amazon.de not ship outside of Europe? (I've ordered books from Amazon.co.uk and Amazon.fr and just had them sent straight to me in the US.)

I'll also note that for English-language used books it can be worth it to search on-line for used bookstores in India, Myanmar, and other developing countries with substantial English-speaking populations. Last year I bought a used book from the Myanmar Book Centre (http://www.myanmarbook.com/) for $29, plus $6 shipping, and whatever the currency conversion fee was on PayPal (a few dollars) where the only copy of that title seemingly available in the US (per Amazon, AbeBooks, and Alibris at least) was going for $153.99 plus at minimum $3.99 shipping via Amazon. I would think that for Spanish-language used books a similar strategy might work (i.e., look for used bookstores in Mexico, Argentina, etc.).

 

[Srynerson]

My experience has been that the "national" Amazons do not ship outside their borders (I believe even amazon.com will not ship to Canada, which is silly), although I am not sure how broad that policy is (and it may have changed since I last tried). The EU (excluding Britain/British Isles?) may be different. This was certainly the case I have encountered with amazon.co.uk, which is too bad, as most British history books are available there at least a year before they are published (usually under a different title and often with a different, yet affiliated, publisher) in Canada or the US. Solution: abebooks.com

I think it depends in part on the product. In the case of the newly-published books you're referring to, I know that publishers have "embargoes" against retailers selling them into other territories for some time. I was thinking mostly of used books.

 

[clavain]

I think it depends in part on the product. In the case of the newly-published books you're referring to, I know that publishers have "embargoes" against retailers selling them into other territories for some time. I was thinking mostly of used books.

abebooks.com is primarily used, although many of the booksellers who list with it sell new stuff as well. You can also list your wants with it, and it will notify you when one of the booksellers has it available, which is pretty cool (although I have not used this feature much, so not sure if it is truly automated against their database or if sellers have an internal means to review/search want lists when they list books). They also have booksellers from around the world, I have purchased items from India, Italy, Germany, the UK, France, Canada and the US (and have probably forgot a couple).

 

[witchbottles]

abebooks.com is primarily used, although many of the booksellers who list with it sell new stuff as well. You can also list your wants with it, and it will notify you when one of the booksellers has it available, which is pretty cool (although I have not used this feature much, so not sure if it is truly automated against their database or if sellers have an internal means to review/search want lists when they list books). They also have booksellers from around the world, I have purchased items from India, Italy, Germany, the UK, France, Canada and the US (and have probably forgot a couple).

abebooks was able to get me a dutch book that was nowhere else to be found. Cost was more than I would have preferred, but they did the duty and found a readable copy for me.

There's quite a few options out there, really.

anyone who is a college student enrolled or a staff professor has access to "ebrary" and the online book databases therein.

everything here is free ebooks or borrow download:

https://openlibrary.org/

KRL, Jon H

 

[chris_olden]

abebooks was able to get me a dutch book that was nowhere else to be found. Cost was more than I would have preferred, but they did the duty and found a readable copy for me.

Was it an owner's manual for Dutch trucks?:laugh:

 

[witchbottles]

Was it an owner's manual for Dutch trucks?:laugh:

nah, they'd already sold the last copy to the Moshers.....

 

[clavain]

nah, they'd already sold the last copy to the Moshers.....

Rep gun empty.

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

nah, they'd already sold the last copy to the Moshers.....

Has anyone seen Don Mosher lately?

He sort of dropped off the ASL playing radar after AoO was published......

 

[Psycho]

Has anyone seen Don Mosher lately?

He sort of dropped off the ASL playing radar after AoO was published......

Either that or Tate ran him off.

 

[xenovin]

Hi Carl,

I've put together 3 draft SCW geo boards (Hill, valley and village) and pulled together the SCW force pools/counters used other designers (CH, Paddington Bears, Steve Swann, John Kim, etc). Was thinking something along the lines of a scenario pack. If you, I and maybe Fernando Maniega if he is interested came up with 3-4 scenarios each, it would not be a heavy lift for any single person. I'm not interested in a CG as that is too large an undertaking for me. I know Ferando is working on a HASL with MMP or LFT for fighting around the university area during the battle for Madrid so that is covered. Prefer to use existing ASL counters and we can hash out what will work best for each unit so we are consistent. Let me know if this is something you might be interested in doing.

BTW - I also read They Shall Not Pass. Nice tactical level view of the battle for ASL action. I also looked at satellite images of battlefield that shows his map is off a bit.

I am still in early stages of all this so no rush. Best,

Vinny