Vinny, I am still in the reading/research phase. Once I get focused in on an exact topic, maybe we can do some collaboration? PM me if interested. Thanks,
Carl
Carl
Spanish Civil War
- Thread starter Carln0130
- Start date
Kevin Kenneally
Elder Member
I remember about the time I joined the ASLML world, there was a link to a site that had the Spanish Civil War information on it.
But that was many years ago. I do have both CH versions of the SCW, as well as the Historical information for the AFVs & Ordnance charts I luckily kept throught the years (in Official Chapter H format).
The files are very large, but I'll see if I can get them post here or in the Downloads area.
But that was many years ago. I do have both CH versions of the SCW, as well as the Historical information for the AFVs & Ordnance charts I luckily kept throught the years (in Official Chapter H format).
The files are very large, but I'll see if I can get them post here or in the Downloads area.
Kevin Kenneally
Elder Member
Here is the file I spoke about.
xenovin
Elder Member
Carl - I'm also in the early research phase and would be interested in collaborating. I always have a few irons in fire but this one keep calling to me. just got a copy of LFT #6 this week from a GS member so research continuing.
Vinny
Vinny
xenovin
Elder Member
Downloaded that Kevin. Thank you.
Ok, Vinny. I will look you up when ready. Please do the same if ready before me.
clavain
Waiting for Godot
Got him for you.
witchbottles
Forum Guru
just finished it, EXCELLENT book
INTO THE HEART OF THE FIRE: THE BRITISH IN THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR
Hopkins, James K.,
1998 Stanford University Press
INTO THE HEART OF THE FIRE: THE BRITISH IN THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR
Hopkins, James K.,
1998 Stanford University Press
MajorDomo
DM? Chuck H2O in his face
I read Preston's book on the Spanish Civil War and "Franco" by Thomas; enjoyed them both. Read "Franco" while touring Spain in 1997, great for historical perspectives on the trip.
Own and played Guerre Civil by CH. It contained a couple of outstanding scenarios and a dog or two. I would recommend:
GC6 - Brihuega Disaster
GC8 - Ay Carmela
GC1 - Teurel's Tooth
GC6 is one of my favorite ASL scenarios. GC1 requires a smart attacker setup.
I own but have not played the LFT Spanish Civil War issue.
Anyone played the LFT ones and how are they?
Rich
Own and played Guerre Civil by CH. It contained a couple of outstanding scenarios and a dog or two. I would recommend:
GC6 - Brihuega Disaster
GC8 - Ay Carmela
GC1 - Teurel's Tooth
GC6 is one of my favorite ASL scenarios. GC1 requires a smart attacker setup.
I own but have not played the LFT Spanish Civil War issue.
Anyone played the LFT ones and how are they?
Rich
fjmaniega
Member
Hi gents,
I am following this thread with interest. I will like to give my point of view, as an ASL player and as a SCW amateur historical researcher for many years.
First I would like to talk about the stuff already published.
John Kim’s website/OAF stuff is based on books that provide general information about the conflict, maybe valid for games at strategical level but not for a tactical game as ASL is.
As for CH’s module I have spoken of it in other forums. I know the author and I know he made his best effort in order that a good module would be published, but the end result was pretty bad. The module had the same problem as John’s and contains erroneous historical data and is incomplete, especially in reference to OB of both sides.
The Franc Tireur project probably is more accurate from the historical point of view, but attempts to recreate all types of participating troops using already published modules. The OB on both sides is also incomplete.
It is difficult to find books or publications that provide data on the SCW from a tactical point of view, at least for the amateur researcher. And most of them are in Spanish so it is not an easy task to people can’t read Spanish. Anyway, I can recommend many books to anyone interested on the subject.
I’d like to share with the ASL community that there is an ongoing project that progresses… a little slowly though. We are trying to be respectful to the max with the historical aspect of the conflict without losing the interest of the ASL player. It will include complete both sides OBs. The most difficult task has been to find technical references and numbers of all types of guns used. But there have been some other difficulties, as the use of ATR, Radio, FT, mines, AFV in the Northern Front… Anyway, the hard work is done or almost…
If the ASL community is interested in the project, we pledge to keep you informed of progress and even (someday) require your help with playtesting and/or translation (for obvious reasons…), proofreading, etc.
Fernando.
I am following this thread with interest. I will like to give my point of view, as an ASL player and as a SCW amateur historical researcher for many years.
First I would like to talk about the stuff already published.
John Kim’s website/OAF stuff is based on books that provide general information about the conflict, maybe valid for games at strategical level but not for a tactical game as ASL is.
As for CH’s module I have spoken of it in other forums. I know the author and I know he made his best effort in order that a good module would be published, but the end result was pretty bad. The module had the same problem as John’s and contains erroneous historical data and is incomplete, especially in reference to OB of both sides.
The Franc Tireur project probably is more accurate from the historical point of view, but attempts to recreate all types of participating troops using already published modules. The OB on both sides is also incomplete.
It is difficult to find books or publications that provide data on the SCW from a tactical point of view, at least for the amateur researcher. And most of them are in Spanish so it is not an easy task to people can’t read Spanish. Anyway, I can recommend many books to anyone interested on the subject.
I’d like to share with the ASL community that there is an ongoing project that progresses… a little slowly though. We are trying to be respectful to the max with the historical aspect of the conflict without losing the interest of the ASL player. It will include complete both sides OBs. The most difficult task has been to find technical references and numbers of all types of guns used. But there have been some other difficulties, as the use of ATR, Radio, FT, mines, AFV in the Northern Front… Anyway, the hard work is done or almost…
If the ASL community is interested in the project, we pledge to keep you informed of progress and even (someday) require your help with playtesting and/or translation (for obvious reasons…), proofreading, etc.
Fernando.
Gunner Scott
Forum Guru
Hi-
First, glasd to see a project like this happening, it is a nice endeavor to see a new product out on this conflict. Perhaps make it something like an action pack with scenarios and maps.
As for research, it is what it is, we amateurs do try to do the best we can with what we have on hand but it does get kind of tiring when someone who seems to have more knowledge of a battle or campaign start's complaining that the designer missed the fact a squad should have been a 336 not a 347 or a hill mass is one meter off and that makes the map ahistorical. Dude its a game and with a game, you try to get as close to the actual events as best as possible without making your design a pain in the ass to play.
The CH version of the SCW (Condor Legions) is actually a very good module, is it exacting in the hyper detail of a PHD researcher? Probably not, but I think it comes pretty darn close for what it is, a PLAYABLE and FUN module that is easily accessible to all and one of the few CH products I would recommend.
Lastly, my best advise is to keep the module playable and have fun designing it, I look forward to your efforts.
Scott
First, glasd to see a project like this happening, it is a nice endeavor to see a new product out on this conflict. Perhaps make it something like an action pack with scenarios and maps.
As for research, it is what it is, we amateurs do try to do the best we can with what we have on hand but it does get kind of tiring when someone who seems to have more knowledge of a battle or campaign start's complaining that the designer missed the fact a squad should have been a 336 not a 347 or a hill mass is one meter off and that makes the map ahistorical. Dude its a game and with a game, you try to get as close to the actual events as best as possible without making your design a pain in the ass to play.
The CH version of the SCW (Condor Legions) is actually a very good module, is it exacting in the hyper detail of a PHD researcher? Probably not, but I think it comes pretty darn close for what it is, a PLAYABLE and FUN module that is easily accessible to all and one of the few CH products I would recommend.
Lastly, my best advise is to keep the module playable and have fun designing it, I look forward to your efforts.
Scott
clavain
Waiting for Godot
Did someone say something? La la la la la
clavain
Waiting for Godot
Fernando, striking a balance between playability and historicity is always a tough line to walk. You want the project to be representative, without getting hung up on whether or not you have accounted for every last vehicle on the field of battle. The best ASL designs, IMHO, have always been the ones that get the design for effect thing right. It conveys the proper feel and decision making issues of the combatants, without bogging itself down with too much detail.
Just my two cents. Good luck with your project. Anything being done on the SCW, I always find to be of interest. As for books on the tactical level, I am already discovering that many of the suggestions here were fine ones. All a matter of perspective. You will seldom find one source, even for the well documented battles of WWII, that spell out everything you want for a scenario or module. It takes some cross referencing, investigative work, and best guesses, and creative flair to come up with something that works.
QUOTE=fjmaniega;1685117]Hi gents,
I am following this thread with interest. I will like to give my point of view, as an ASL player and as a SCW amateur historical researcher for many years.
First I would like to talk about the stuff already published.
John Kim’s website/OAF stuff is based on books that provide general information about the conflict, maybe valid for games at strategical level but not for a tactical game as ASL is.
As for CH’s module I have spoken of it in other forums. I know the author and I know he made his best effort in order that a good module would be published, but the end result was pretty bad. The module had the same problem as John’s and contains erroneous historical data and is incomplete, especially in reference to OB of both sides.
The Franc Tireur project probably is more accurate from the historical point of view, but attempts to recreate all types of participating troops using already published modules. The OB on both sides is also incomplete.
It is difficult to find books or publications that provide data on the SCW from a tactical point of view, at least for the amateur researcher. And most of them are in Spanish so it is not an easy task to people can’t read Spanish. Anyway, I can recommend many books to anyone interested on the subject.
I’d like to share with the ASL community that there is an ongoing project that progresses… a little slowly though. We are trying to be respectful to the max with the historical aspect of the conflict without losing the interest of the ASL player. It will include complete both sides OBs. The most difficult task has been to find technical references and numbers of all types of guns used. But there have been some other difficulties, as the use of ATR, Radio, FT, mines, AFV in the Northern Front… Anyway, the hard work is done or almost…
If the ASL community is interested in the project, we pledge to keep you informed of progress and even (someday) require your help with playtesting and/or translation (for obvious reasons…), proofreading, etc.
Fernando.[/QUOTE]
Just my two cents. Good luck with your project. Anything being done on the SCW, I always find to be of interest. As for books on the tactical level, I am already discovering that many of the suggestions here were fine ones. All a matter of perspective. You will seldom find one source, even for the well documented battles of WWII, that spell out everything you want for a scenario or module. It takes some cross referencing, investigative work, and best guesses, and creative flair to come up with something that works.
QUOTE=fjmaniega;1685117]Hi gents,
I am following this thread with interest. I will like to give my point of view, as an ASL player and as a SCW amateur historical researcher for many years.
First I would like to talk about the stuff already published.
John Kim’s website/OAF stuff is based on books that provide general information about the conflict, maybe valid for games at strategical level but not for a tactical game as ASL is.
As for CH’s module I have spoken of it in other forums. I know the author and I know he made his best effort in order that a good module would be published, but the end result was pretty bad. The module had the same problem as John’s and contains erroneous historical data and is incomplete, especially in reference to OB of both sides.
The Franc Tireur project probably is more accurate from the historical point of view, but attempts to recreate all types of participating troops using already published modules. The OB on both sides is also incomplete.
It is difficult to find books or publications that provide data on the SCW from a tactical point of view, at least for the amateur researcher. And most of them are in Spanish so it is not an easy task to people can’t read Spanish. Anyway, I can recommend many books to anyone interested on the subject.
I’d like to share with the ASL community that there is an ongoing project that progresses… a little slowly though. We are trying to be respectful to the max with the historical aspect of the conflict without losing the interest of the ASL player. It will include complete both sides OBs. The most difficult task has been to find technical references and numbers of all types of guns used. But there have been some other difficulties, as the use of ATR, Radio, FT, mines, AFV in the Northern Front… Anyway, the hard work is done or almost…
If the ASL community is interested in the project, we pledge to keep you informed of progress and even (someday) require your help with playtesting and/or translation (for obvious reasons…), proofreading, etc.
Fernando.[/QUOTE]
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Gunner Scott
Forum Guru
There are some designers that get it right and others that just dont get it. In some scenarios I have played recently, I feel like I played blue counters vs green counters and the scenarios have not felt like Americans vs germans. So yes, some designers get just way too hung up on the detail's and sacrifice playability in the process. Still, there are some complicated scenarios out there that do work, though the little detail's can be a bit mind numbing but the action and order of battle are so interesting, that you can not resist giving that action a try like Streets of Rostov from DftB, a bit complicated but actually alot of fun to play and one you will probably need to play again to grok the Russian defense. Plus its SS vs Russians, the best kind of ASL.
Anyway, good points Carl on all accounts.
Scott
Anyway, good points Carl on all accounts.
Scott
[/QUOTE]
witchbottles
Forum Guru
[/QUOTE]
Ahhh. The proverbial " Rabbit holes". For this alone is what makes historical research so damn interesting in the first place, for me at least.
If it was all in a single resource, nice, tidy and neat, I'd probably not be so inclined to study historical events.
Think of all the good reads one would miss without multiple referential works.
YMMV
KRL, Jon H
witchbottles
Forum Guru
just came across one I did not see yet:
Fighting Fascism in Europe : The World War II Letters of an American Veteran of the Spanish Civil War
David Cane
2003
Fordham University Press
Fighting Fascism in Europe : The World War II Letters of an American Veteran of the Spanish Civil War
David Cane
2003
Fordham University Press
BattleSchool
Elder Member
I think what Fernando and his compadres may by trying to do is to establish a baseline for the capabilities, and characteristics of each major faction (with exceptions based on the front in question). At the moment, there does not appear to be a consensus on how the various participants should be portrayed.
It's not unlike the rework the Finns are undergoing at the moment. Had more time and resources been available back in the day, the Soviets arguably would have a more nuanced (and richer) MMC structure that included second-line troops, and perhaps a lower-order Conscript MMC (3-3-6), at least for the period prior to mid 1942, or thereabouts. They might also have had restrictions on Infantry movement prior to 1941 (i.e. some form of Platoon Movement), and a unique, late-war structure. (Contrast the Russian MMC structure with the Ami squads found in Rising Sun alone!)
That said, I agree with Carl that the best scenarios are the ones that distill the essential flavours of an engagement into a manageable (SSR-light, et. al.) and engaging contest.
It takes all sorts of people to build a house. Some excel at framing. Others enjoy millwork. The best designers are jacks of all trades.
It's not unlike the rework the Finns are undergoing at the moment. Had more time and resources been available back in the day, the Soviets arguably would have a more nuanced (and richer) MMC structure that included second-line troops, and perhaps a lower-order Conscript MMC (3-3-6), at least for the period prior to mid 1942, or thereabouts. They might also have had restrictions on Infantry movement prior to 1941 (i.e. some form of Platoon Movement), and a unique, late-war structure. (Contrast the Russian MMC structure with the Ami squads found in Rising Sun alone!)
That said, I agree with Carl that the best scenarios are the ones that distill the essential flavours of an engagement into a manageable (SSR-light, et. al.) and engaging contest.
It takes all sorts of people to build a house. Some excel at framing. Others enjoy millwork. The best designers are jacks of all trades.