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Bret Hildebran

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"Everybody's doing it" doesn't cut it for my kids and definately NOT for multimillionaire frauds...
I wasn't excusing the action - just explaining how I think Barry made his decision and I can certainly understand the decision. If your employer is celebrating the cheaters & shunning the truly great players that were clean, it's not a shock that a lot of players went to the dark side. IMO management (I'm looking at you Bud) shares a ton of the blame for the PEDs debacle and one could argue they were the root cause for not cracking down on it when they could and can make a strong case management was condoning PEDs use given the HR race et. al.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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..or, you could take it in the other direction: "I'm good enough to compete without the cheat". Barry certainly had(/has?) the eye at the plate AND the stroke. If he only had Walter Payton's work ethic....
 

Bret Hildebran

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..or, you could take it in the other direction: "I'm good enough to compete without the cheat". Barry certainly had(/has?) the eye at the plate AND the stroke.
Well he was good enough to compete - heck you can make a good case he was better than either McGwire or Sosa during their run, but he was summarily ignored because he wasn't going yard constantly. Perhaps he didn't react in the most mature way, but a lesson he taught.

If he only had Walter Payton's work ethic....
Are you sure he didn't? Everything I've seen says he worked very hard in the off season to make himself better. He was certainly complementing the PEDs with a heavy workout regimen. He wasn't doing the Canseco "I only juice and laugh at the guys that work hard" philosophy. Maybe you meant Walter's ethics instead?
 

drchilds

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The Red Sox today acquired starting pitcher Paul Byrd in a trade with the Indians. The Red Sox will send either a player to be named or cash to the Indians.
Hmmm... what do you Cleveland guys think about this?
 

wrongway149

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Hmmm... what do you Cleveland guys think about this?
Hmmm... is right!

Kinda like Casey Blake.

He had been doing well enough lately, but not in the plans for '09 no matter what.
Might as well get something for him now, and bring Aaron Laffey back up for more seasoning.
 

Psycho

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Psycho

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My bad .

This must be why they wanted Byrd.
Beckett pitched last night.

Another case of the big teams taking advantage of the smaller or teams out of it. I can't believe nobody wanted him. There's plenty of teams that could use pitching. :angry:
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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Did Howe ever actually get arrested? I honestly don't know - he was suspended by baseball 7 times, including once for life (overturned 2 years later). time for tax evasion. I didn't.
Good question; I think he might have been, but wouldn't (haha) bet the farm...

You realize Steve Howe is dead?
Yeah, remembered that.

at least admitted he had a problem, something Pete never really has. Heck, Pete continued to go to the track religiously after getting thrown out of baseball for gambling!
Gambling at the track is illegal?

Itneeded to be said. As a Reds fan it was somewhat of a mystery as to how that collection of talent was ALWAYS 2nd during Pete's tenure. Quite frustrating. I'm willing to concede it's more likely he was a bad manager than dumping games due to his gambling, but the small probability of the latter is poisoning in my view.
Growing up in New England, I asked the same thing about the Sox and Patsies...

You are banking on the character of a guy that's now admitted to lying for what 15 years about gambling on baseball? While I agree, it's somewhat unlikely, if he got in deep enough with the gamblers...
Fair enough point and a concern historically for The Game (look what's happening in the NBA now...), but Pete Rose is the guy who flattened Ray Fosse in an All-Star game ; I can't see him, whatever other character flaws he may have, betting/managing/playing to do anything but win. Like a salmon, it's in their nature to swim back to the home stream.

I'm not condoning it - I agree it's unethical & the real crime is the potential to drive others to use, and risk their health, in order to compete with the juicers. But I do see the irony that taking a certain substance to improve performance is verboten while working out to improve your game is condoned & applauded. There's a fine line there & it's not a shock lots of folks have crossed it over the years...
I'm just at a loss to see how you're trying to equate the two; it's like saying people who work hard all their life are only one step removed from those who understandably see bank robbery as an easier alternative...or maybe I'm just Neanderthalically dense...

To be honest I think what drove Barry to PEDs was MLB ignoring their abuse and openly embracing the McGwire/Sosa HR race and shunning Barry. At that point Barry said "OK - I'll show you what a REAL player can do on this stuff" and the rest is history. He certainly succumbed to the peer pressure, but it's somewhat understandable in retrospect. And Barry was still a legendary player prior to the PEDs - that didn't change. He can just go down in the Ty Cobb character class for great players...
Character, or lack thereof, is sometimes part and parcel of the greats; that blind, intensely focused mien needed to perform at a high level seems to draw les savory personality traits out of many true greats; still, as every parent tells every child, "two wrongs don't make a right". Hell, Barry could have been a voice exposing the sham, and drawing the contrast betwee his (then) non-juiced production and the juicers' production. Instead, he chose the path of least resistance and left his morals at the side of the path, instaed of taking them down the less-traveled path.

Although filling out the lineup card those last few years certainly didn't hurt! :D
Who would have left the historically significant chase for the hit record unfulfilled then-or now?

H
ey, if you want to defend Pete on the "he only violated baseball's most sacred rule as a manager, not as a player" card, I think it's relevant to point out there were suspicions of him as a player too. Nothing proven, but where there's smoke...
Suspicions aren't facts, even in light of subsequent revelations. Was the player -era investigation a betting on baseball theory or a betting in general theory. Just for drawing a parallel, Michael Jordan's well-noted foray into MLB was whipered to be a cover for investigations into HIS gambling activities-perhaps an unpublicised 'suspension' of sorts for conduct unbecoming...the difference between Pete and MJ being one nearly universaly beloved, the other...not quite so...
 

Bret Hildebran

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Hmmm... what do you Cleveland guys think about this?
Good riddance. If we get some used resin bags in return, we did OK! :devious:

As Pete notes, Byrd wasn't going to be an Indian in '09 so if they get something at all for him, they came out ahead. And frankly he's not good enough that a) what they call up from the minors to replace him may not be better or b) even if what they call up is bad it makes them play far worse ball in '08. Shall we say it's a far cry from trading CC...
 

Bret Hildebran

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Gambling at the track is illegal?
Certainly not, but...When you claim you have no gambling problem, but the rest of the world says you do & you're desperately trying to get reinstated, going to the track and gambling each and every week isn't the brightest thing to do. But Rose has never been accused of being that smart.

I'm just at a loss to see how you're trying to equate the two; it's like saying people who work hard all their life are only one step removed from those who understandably see bank robbery as an easier alternative...or maybe I'm just Neanderthalically dense...
I just see PEDs usage as a relatively victimless crime, unlike say bank robbery. The only victim potentially is the peers of the PEDs user who are now at a competitive disadvantage & face the choice of using themselves or perhaps being a step slow. Which is the same choice they'd face if the PEDs users instead of juicing were working out maniacally in the gym - that's why I draw the comparison. It's a step in self improvement, beyond eating right and working out, but it's a step that we've decreed is immoral and cheating. To me that's a relatively fine line of demarcation in a lot of ways. That's all I'm saying...

Character, or lack thereof, is sometimes part and parcel of the greats; that blind, intensely focused mien needed to perform at a high level seems to draw les savory personality traits out of many true greats; still, as every parent tells every child, "two wrongs don't make a right". Hell, Barry could have been a voice exposing the sham, and drawing the contrast betwee his (then) non-juiced production and the juicers' production. Instead, he chose the path of least resistance and left his morals at the side of the path, instaed of taking them down the less-traveled path.
Overall, I agree. It would have been fascinating if Barry had been the voice of reason standing up what was right. At the time though, I don't think he'd have been listened to. Everyone was enjoying the HR race more, the owners loved cashing those big checks from the huge gates and Barry's never exactly been a beloved figure where he could have broken the code like that.


Who would have left the historically significant chase for the hit record unfulfilled then-or now?
Oh, I'm not claiming he wouldn't have gotten 4,192, I'm just saying there were times he likely shouldn't have been out there at the end. Although I think his last season was actually quite good, unlike the couple years prior, but he mostly pinch hit that year.

Suspicions aren't facts, even in light of subsequent revelations. Was the player -era investigation a betting on baseball theory or a betting in general theory. Just for drawing a parallel, Michael Jordan's well-noted foray into MLB was whipered to be a cover for investigations into HIS gambling activities-perhaps an unpublicised 'suspension' of sorts for conduct unbecoming...the difference between Pete and MJ being one nearly universaly beloved, the other...not quite so...
There were whispers of betting on both, although I think the main concerns were his huge gambling on football and concerns of it being a gateway into more. I've always heard the MJ rumors, although I've never heard the claim he was betting on basketball - and to me that's the root issue. You can't be on the sport that you can directly influence & Pete did.
 

rdw5150

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Good riddance. If we get some used resin bags in return, we did OK! :devious:.
Agreed..... to use the Buddy Ryan quote (I did not like Buddy but like the quote), "Trade him for a warm six-pack":smoke:

Whatever we got for him is a bonus

Peace

Roger
 

BruceC

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I just see PEDs usage as a relatively victimless crime, unlike say bank robbery. The only victim potentially is the peers of the PEDs user who are now at a competitive disadvantage & face the choice of using themselves or perhaps being a step slow. Which is the same choice they'd face if the PEDs users instead of juicing were working out maniacally in the gym - that's why I draw the comparison.
I disagree. Anybody with respect for baseball history should be offended by this juicing business. The ghosts of baseball's past will visit you tonite in your bed.

It's a step in self improvement, beyond eating right and working out, but it's a step that we've decreed is immoral and cheating. To me that's a relatively fine line of demarcation in a lot of ways. That's all I'm saying...
Again I disagree. How can you equate juicing with strength training? Do you spend any time in the gym working out? I must assume not, if you do you should see that it's not fun, but the benefits are obvious. Both get you built up, but the similarities end there.

In the hall of time, I think that this steroid era will be looked at with great disgust and self-loathing. The media gave us the sensationalism, we ate it up without question, and now we blame the players. Sure, they deserve their share of blame, but who enjoyed watching McGwire et al hitting homers almost predictably? Plenty of blame to go around IMHO. Trying to justify the thing is useless.
 
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