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RobZagnut

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There you go. As much as I like Bonds, did he help his team make the playoffs? As good as his numbers were they weren't enough to make the postseason. He might have been the Giants MVP but shouldn't get the league MVP. :nada:
He posted those two players to prove you wrong. Baseball voted them as MVPs, because they had special individual seasons above and beyond what their teams did.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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How valuable are you if you don't win? That's the point of the whole season.

There needs to be a salary cap in baseball or else you will continue to see these same teams struggle to compete. The best players leave and those teams continue to be farm systems for the big market teams. :(
Twins.
Marlins
DEVIL Rays.
Brewers.

Teams like these prove talent and organisational strength is as valuable as deep pockets. What is needed is a fund from the league to prevent harder working teams (in terms of player development/scouting) from being farm teams for the large-market teams.
 

Psycho

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He posted those two players to prove you wrong. Baseball voted them as MVPs, because they had special individual seasons above and beyond what their teams did.
He didn't prove me wrong because I know they sometimes vote for the best stats over a postseason appearance. That shows that voting is flawed because when do stats matter and when does helping your team succeed? So which is it? Is it about the stats or winning? :hmmm:
 

Psycho

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Twins.
Marlins
DEVIL Rays.
Brewers.

Teams like these prove talent and organisational strength is as valuable as deep pockets. What is needed is a fund from the league to prevent harder working teams (in terms of player development/scouting) from being farm teams for the large-market teams.
That would be a start. Something needs to be done or we'll never see the Pirates or Royals win again (two teams with a rich history until recently).
 

RobZagnut

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He didn't prove me wrong because I know they sometimes vote for the best stats over a postseason appearance. That shows that voting is flawed because when do stats matter and when does helping your team succeed? So which is it? Is it about the stats or winning? :hmmm:
Depends on the year and it depends on what type of stats a player has that year. The voting is not flawed, it's subjective and everyone has their opinion on who should win it. That's why it's a good award, nothing is set in stone, because it's different each year and sometimes pitchers win it too.

Bonds hits 80 HRs in a season and should get the MVP even though his team doesn't make the playoffs. If Josh Hamilton wins the Triple Crown and the Rangers still finish last he should still get the MVP.

Again, it's never been about if your team is a playoff team. Sometimes it works out that way and an MVP candidate can CARRY a team on his back into the playoffs. See CC Sabathia this year or Kirk Gibson for the Dodgers.
 

Psycho

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Depends on the year and it depends on what type of stats a player has that year. The voting is not flawed, it's subjective and everyone has their opinion on who should win it. That's why it's a good award, nothing is set in stone, because it's different each year and sometimes pitchers win it too.

Bonds hits 80 HRs in a season and should get the MVP even though his team doesn't make the playoffs. If Josh Hamilton wins the Triple Crown and the Rangers still finish last he should still get the MVP.

Again, it's never been about if your team is a playoff team. Sometimes it works out that way and an MVP candidate can CARRY a team on his back into the playoffs. See CC Sabathia this year or Kirk Gibson for the Dodgers.
I know how it works. It doesn't make sense. Why do stats matter in some years and not others? And pitchers have the Cy Young Award. They don't contribute every day so it seems odd that they should be considered for MVP.
 

Bob Holmstrom

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Sometimes it's about individual stats, actually HR stats--see Bonds over Pujols in '04 and Howard over Pujols in '06. Other years it's about team success--Rollins over Pujols last year, whomever over Pujols this year.

It's a joke in my mind.
 

Psycho

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Sometimes it's about individual stats, actually HR stats--see Bonds over Pujols in '04 and Howard over Pujols in '06. Other years it's about team success--Rollins over Pujols last year, whomever over Pujols this year.

It's a joke in my mind.
Exactly. :clap:
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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Sometimes it's about individual stats, actually HR stats--see Bonds over Pujols in '04 and Howard over Pujols in '06. Other years it's about team success--Rollins over Pujols last year, whomever over Pujols this year.

It's a joke in my mind.
Guys like Pete Rose, Mickey Rivers, Rickey Henderson, Dustin Perdoia...HRs aren't gonna fly off their bats...BUT they're arguably more valuable than the guys sitting back trying to go deep. MLBs MVP tends to be more of a 'honest' award than any other major sports MVP. I personally like to see deserving guys win, rather than the pure stats whore -anyday-
 

BruceC

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Guys like Pete Rose, Mickey Rivers, Rickey Henderson, Dustin Perdoia...HRs aren't gonna fly off their bats...BUT they're arguably more valuable than the guys sitting back trying to go deep. MLBs MVP tends to be more of a 'honest' award than any other major sports MVP. I personally like to see deserving guys win, rather than the pure stats whore -anyday-
Yes. Big HR guys tend to strike out a lot, a stat that is ignored when HRs are so attractive.

The MVP is surely a subjective issue, IMO it should go to a player on a winning (or at least successful) team that without this guy would probably not have been so successful, but I understand this isn't a hard set rule.
 

BruceC

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How valuable are you if you don't win? That's the point of the whole season.

There needs to be a salary cap in baseball or else you will continue to see these same teams struggle to compete. The best players leave and those teams continue to be farm systems for the big market teams. :(
A few years ago, ESPN had a debate where this topic was featured. It was basically sox vs yanks with the yanks being opposed to the cap. After the debate, the sox went on a spending spree and it hasn't stopped. Funny thing is, while our current team salary is artificially high, (Manny, overpaid for JD and Lugo, Curt not playing, etc..) and we find our young players contributing above and beyond to the effort. I think we could shed some salary and keep the quality of play high (for now...).
 

Psycho

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Rays looked good against the White Sox. :thumup:

Longoria is on a tear right now. :crosseye:
 

Bob Holmstrom

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Guys like Pete Rose, Mickey Rivers, Rickey Henderson, Dustin Perdoia...HRs aren't gonna fly off their bats...BUT they're arguably more valuable than the guys sitting back trying to go deep. MLBs MVP tends to be more of a 'honest' award than any other major sports MVP. I personally like to see deserving guys win, rather than the pure stats whore -anyday-
I disagree that the MVP is a more "honest" award than other MVP's. Again, note my examples of recent NL MVP's.

What i'd like to see is the award either say, "The MVP award is for the best individual player in the league regardless of team success" or "The MVP award is for the player who best led his team to the playoffs."
 

Psycho

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I disagree that the MVP is a more "honest" award than other MVP's. Again, note my examples of recent NL MVP's.

What i'd like to see is the award either say, "The MVP award is for the best individual player in the league regardless of team success" or "The MVP award is for the player who best led his team to the playoffs."
Despite his unbelievable and unwarranted support for Scolari over Hanks, I have to agree with my sometime nemesis, Mr Holmstrom. :clap:
 

RobZagnut

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What i'd like to see is the award either say, "The MVP award is for the best individual player in the league regardless of team success" or "The MVP award is for the player who best led his team to the playoffs."
Not me. I like it the way it is.

Each year is different. And each league is different. So, there's no cut and dry formula as to who is best.

Some years there's a clear cut winner. Some years it's a toss up between 2 or 3 players. Some years there's no clear favorite. Sometimes a pitcher is so overwhelmingly dominant that he wins the Cy Young and MVP. Some years a guy gets hot and carries his team to the playoffs. Some years a team is so dominant that a guy from that team is awarded.

It makes for good discussion and debate. And it's never boring.
 

Bob Holmstrom

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Who would you rather be in a foxhole with? Who do you want protecting America? Protecting your children, who are the future! :flag:


Not the guy who had his squad charge that German machine gun nest on the hill in broad daylight. Scolari would never had made such a stupid decision.:laugh:
 

Bob Holmstrom

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Not me. I like it the way it is.

Each year is different. And each league is different. So, there's no cut and dry formula as to who is best.

Some years there's a clear cut winner. Some years it's a toss up between 2 or 3 players. Some years there's no clear favorite. Sometimes a pitcher is so overwhelmingly dominant that he wins the Cy Young and MVP. Some years a guy gets hot and carries his team to the playoffs. Some years a team is so dominant that a guy from that team is awarded.

It makes for good discussion and debate. And it's never boring.
Even with a formula like i mentioned there would be discussion. Who helped their team most to make the postseason in the NL this year? Ryan Howard? Sabathia? Manny? Aramis Ramirez?
 
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