Some ordinance SMOKE questions...

esprcorn

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1) AFV fires smoke at level 1 and is successful. Does the smoke round land at the ground level of the hex? Or at level 1 (leaving the ground level clear of smoke). I think it's the first.

2) Is the Smoke location the ground level? Or is all 2 or 4 levels of the hinderance?
 

clubby

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1) Ground level

2) Smoke rises to level 2. That means that units in a building with a base level of zero will be in the Smoke at level 0 and level 1 and units at level 2 will be at a plateau level with the top of the Smoke but shooting down through it will get the hindrance. Only a unit at level 2 or higher shooting at a unit similarly at level 2 or higher will avoid the Smoke in it's hex.
 

clubby

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To expound on 2 further, the unit would be penalized shooting down through the Smoke with a +3 but not the additional +1 for shooting out of the Smoke because they're not actually in the Smoke.
 

clubby

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And of course, I'm referring to PFPh Ordnance placed (per the thread title) White +3 Smoke. WP is a level 4 hindrance of +2. A vehicle blaze is also a level 4 +2.
 

esprcorn

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To expound on 2 further, the unit would be penalized shooting down through the Smoke with a +3 but not the additional +1 for shooting out of the Smoke because they're not actually in the Smoke.
This is what I was getting at. It's only a ground level unit that pays the extra +1
 

clubby

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No. It's any unit that's firing out of the Smoke. In my example, any unit at level 0 or level 1 because Smoke rising up TO level 2. A unit AT level 2 is not in the Smoke, they're at the level that's even with the top of it.
 
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jrv

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This is what I was getting at. It's only a ground level unit that pays the extra +1
Smoke fills the ground level and the first level of a hex. If a unit is in a building and is at level zero or one, it is in the Smoke and pays the extra +1. If the unit is at level two, it is not in Smoke. If the unit at level two fires at an enemy unit which is itself at level two or higher, the LOS goes above the Smoke and there is no hindrance DRM from the Smoke for that attack. If the enemy unit is at a level lower than two, the Smoke DRM applies to the attack, although the firing unit is not considered to be in Smoke. I always think of the unit at level two as being in Smoke up to its ankles, but that is just my way of remembering how it works.

JR
 

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The one thing that is most often misplayed is that a unit at level 1 in the circumstance mentioned by Clubby cannot see any level 0 locations because it would be firing out of a Smoke Location (+3 Smoke & Add'l +1 firing out of Smoke) and also firing down through another Smoke location rising trough level 0 (an additional +3, thus blocking all LOS). Many people confuse firing out of Smoke as a "hex" thing, but it's actually "Location" dependant.
 

jrv

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The one thing that is most often misplayed is that a unit at level 1 in the circumstance mentioned by Clubby cannot see any level 0 locations because it would be firing out of a Smoke Location (+3 Smoke & Add'l +1 firing out of Smoke) and also firing down through another Smoke location rising trough level 0 (an additional +3, thus blocking all LOS). Many people confuse firing out of Smoke as a "hex" thing, but it's actually "Location" dependant.
"Cannot see any other *Smoke*, level 0 locations," I think intending to mean in the unit's current hex. But in fact a unit in +3 Smoke (thus starting with a +4 Smoke hindrance) cannot see any other Smoke Locations at all, no matter whether they are higher, the same height or lower because the Smoke in the other Location will have a minimum +2 hindrance for a total of at least +6 hindrance.

JR
 

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"Cannot see any other *Smoke*, level 0 locations," I think intending to mean in the unit's current hex. But in fact a unit in +3 Smoke (thus starting with a +4 Smoke hindrance) cannot see any other Smoke Locations at all, no matter whether they are higher, the same height or lower because the Smoke in the other Location will have a minimum +2 hindrance for a total of at least +6 hindrance.

JR
Well, if the Example in A24.4 is true that a unit at Level 2 incurs a Smoke hinderance firing at any units in a lower elevation, it must also be true that a unit at Level 1 would also incur the same penalty in addition to firing out of a Smoke Location. Thus, if you were in that situation where a +3 Smoke was in hex, you would have no LOS to any lower elevation units, in hex or not. You are correct though that it would be unable to any units at any Level if the other unit was in Smoke as well (assuming of course we're talking where the cumulative Hindrance DRMs are at least +6).
 

jrv

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You are saying that a unit at level one would incur a Smoke hindrance for its own Location and then also for the level immediately below it in its own hex when firing at a unit at a lower level outside its hex, independent of whether the target hex has Smoke or not. I think geometrically you are correct that the LOS goes through both the level one unit's Location *and* the Location immediately below it, but I don't think the intention is to block LOS. I would be interested to see the response to a Q&A on that.

If that were the intention we would have to know when a LOS goes up through two levels in the same hex as well, so geometrically in the A24.4 EX it is possible that the LOS from unit B to unit C goes up through two levels of SMOKE (and certainly would if unit C were at level two in H5), but we have no mechanism to calculate this. In the EX the LOS goes through exactly one Smoke, so I suspect that a Q&A would have to say a LOS from level one to a lower level (or a higher level) goes through one Smoke hindrance location in that hex.

No one has ever asked about what happens with level three (or higher) either, so does unit A in the A24.4 EX have a Smoke hindrance to H3 if it is at level 3? To G3?

JR
 
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Eagle4ty

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You are saying that a unit at level one would incur a Smoke hindrance for its own Location and then also for the level immediately below it in its own hex when firing at a unit at a lower level outside its hex, independent of whether the target hex has Smoke or not. I think geometrically you are correct that the LOS goes through both the level one unit's Location *and* the Location immediately below it, but I don't think the intention is to block LOS. I would be interested to see the response to a Q&A on that.

JR
That's what the rules say and like I've stated, if it's true for a Level 2 unit to be firing through Smoke to a lower elevation, it must also be true for a Level 1 unit doing likewise. I've never seen anything to the contrary. Only when the Rule stated "a Smoke Hex" were you allowed to fire from a Smoke filled Hex at Level 1 to a lower elevation location without incurring the additional lower hinderance. Who cares what the intention was as that's pure conjecture; the rule as stated is currently the effects. (just say'n):study::rolleyes:
 

jrv

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That's what the rules say and like I've stated, if it's true for a Level 2 unit to be firing through Smoke to a lower elevation, it must also be true for a Level 1 unit doing likewise. I've never seen anything to the contrary. Only when the Rule stated "a Smoke Hex" were you allowed to fire from a Smoke filled Hex at Level 1 to a lower elevation location without incurring the additional lower hinderance. Who cares what the intention was as that's pure conjecture; the rule as stated is currently the effects. (just say'n):study::rolleyes:
So in the A24.4 EX, squad A at level two has a +3 hindrance firing at squad D. What is the LOS hindrance if squad A is at level one?

Next assume the +3 Smoke is in H3 and not in I4. What is the hindrance from squad A at level two? What is the hindrance from squad A at level one?

JR
 

clubby

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This discussion led me to further research which led me to this discussion:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/smoke-los-hindrance.103215/

Which raises a couple questions. First, this thread is from 2011 but the 24.4EX picture posted by klas is not the same picture in the current rulebook. Second, they seemed to come to a consensus that a unit firing from level 1 Smoke to a level 0 adjacent hex would only be hit with a +4 Hindrance. This 24.4EX picture seems to drive this point home. Where is the picture from in this thread? Why is a thread from 2011 using a picture that doesn't appear in the current rulebook? Was there ever any clarification on this subject because it would seem to make a HUGE difference?
 

clubby

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I would postulate, based on the current 24.4EX that it was not the intention that LOS traced from a Smoke hex and through the same Smoke when firing at units outside that hex at different elevations be penalized twice. The EX clearly shows that squad B has LOS to squad C with a +3 Hindrance. It stands to reason that if the intention was to eat two hindrances from the same Smoke, squad B would be hit with +5 not +3 when firing up to Level 2 at squad C.
 

Eagle4ty

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I would postulate, based on the current 24.4EX that it was not the intention that LOS traced from a Smoke hex and through the same Smoke when firing at units outside that hex at different elevations be penalized twice. The EX clearly shows that squad B has LOS to squad C with a +3 Hindrance. It stands to reason that if the intention was to eat two hindrances from the same Smoke, squad B would be hit with +5 not +3 when firing up to Level 2 at squad C.
Agreed, the ASLRB has not been updated/clarified sufficiently to address the change from Hex to Location in this single instance (probably no one thought of the unintended consequence). One only has to ask yourself a few very basic questions:
1. Is Level 2 at a higher elevation than Level 1 and is the fire from Level 2 hindered by a lower level Smoke Location when firing at a lower elevation? Yes {See top most U.S. Sqd in Example}.
2. Is Level 1 at a higher elevation than Level 0? Yes, and it should logically follow that if Smoke only rose to (but not inclusive of) level 1 its fire would also be hindered by a lower Level smoke Location. {Simple logic would dictate thus}
3. Add Smoke in the Level 1 Location and what do you have? With a +3 Smoke, a blocked LOS to all lower elevations.

In the original ASLRB the rule was fire from a Smoke hex. Just because when the rule was changed to say Location to prevent a unit at Level 1 from firing directly downstairs to Level 0 (or even having a LOS to it for that matter), that it would not have some probable unintended consequences is really immaterial. If this is not the case then fire from a Level 1 Smoke Location directly downstairs to a Smoke filled Level 0 Location cannot be affected by the additional Smoke in that Location as well. Then how would one logically reconcile fire from a Level 2 Location incurring a Smoke hinderance to lower elevation shots? I would play the rule as it currently stands and try not to infer the intended (i.e.unknown) effects. jrv does have a good question in what is the effects if a firing unit was at Level 3 (or higher).
 
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