some more minor tweaks suggestions

[Kraut]

some more things I found that need some tweaking:

The soviet 'Russian OOB 1 - 8 Army B' starts with Rifle AT- Squads that start production turn 186+ .. should have been normale rifle squads I guess.

the small british fighter units have Battle planes as their first equipment, these Battles have no production and as we learned evaped squads won't reconstitute if their first equipment isn't available. So either put some common planes at position one or give the Battle planes some production

reduce the swedish finnish-aid units in strength (as already suggested in the WinterWar thread) and to compensate maybe add a british finnish-aid unit.

Set the french air force to reconstitute: especially early in the war french and UK fighter units have a nasty habit of evaporating easily and if the Axis goes on an EC these french planes will be needed later on badly.

The early german PzCorps: I suggest putting the PzIV on top instead of the Pz 38t for the same reconstitution thing.

 

[Mark Stevens]

Didn't we decide that - whatever the manual says - that not reconstituting without sufficient equipment in the top slot didn't seem to apply?

 

[Kraut]

yes ? Did I miss something ? I thought that a unit that is missing its Nr. 1 equipment won't reconstitute although there is plenty of it's other assigned equipment available. If thats not the case than why does my soviet fighters in EA 1.7 don't reconstitute anymore ?

 

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Mark Stevens
Didn't we decide that - whatever the manual says - that not reconstituting without sufficient equipment in the top slot didn't seem to apply?

Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

 

[Mark Stevens]

This is the comment - from Siberian Heat - that I was thinking of: there's a longer discussion on the issue under the thread 1.8 (c) changes:

Quote

For the record, the article mentioned above by Panzerpelle was actually written by General Staff.

I would have to see the effects on gameplay of putting a porter unit at the head of the unit (or something like that) because I am not convinced the old system was broken (at least in this scenario). I have played through to turn 310 and never felt anything was missing on the allied side...although my German counterpart may have other ideas.

If you have every unit coming back turn after turn you could theoretically build up reserves in the deep backfield until they are ready to be deployed again which would be closer to reality...but what would probably happen (especially on the Russian side) is those units would be rushed back into battle as empty shells.

Likewise, at the end of the war (1945) the Berlin area is going to be swarming with shell units causing all kinds of havoc.

This needs to be tested to see the effects on a scenario of this scale.

Unquote

 

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Kraut
The early german PzCorps: I suggest putting the PzIV on top instead of the Pz 38t for the same reconstitution thing.

The Pz 38(t) was still in production as late as 1942. The early war Mk-IVs would have gone much sooner.

 

[Dan Neely]

Originally posted by Mark Stevens
I would have to see the effects on gameplay of putting a porter unit at the head of the unit (or something like that) because I am not convinced the old system was broken (at least in this scenario). I have played through to turn 310 and never felt anything was missing on the allied side...although my German counterpart may have other ideas.

just did a test of it.



~15 units with 1/100 LR squads 0/9999 LR AT- and 0/9999LT AT squads were killed in combat. replacements were 99999 of each. LRAT- and LRAT squads started on turn 1, LR squads not until 10. on turn 9 none of the evaped units were set to reconstitute. the next turn they all were.

In the game, russian air killed during the winter war that don't reconsitute before fighting stops won't reconstitute until after barbarossa puts the red AF under attack again. the 'bomber' units in the RAF formation will stay permanantly dead once the battles are all used up. likewise I've had tank corps that've never reconstituted even when I've had a pile of panzers available.

 

[Chuck?]

The Axis Panzer Corps will not reconstitute later in the war. This is probably due to the end of production of the early tanks.

 

[Kraut]

exactly, in turn 109 I had 99 Pz38 on hand (will be produced until turn 128) but 1200 PzIV E. The production of the PzIV E will stop at turn 131 but the large stock will allow the early PzCorps to reconstitute for some time until this stock is used up. With the Pz38t on top eleminated tank corps have to wait for some of the other early tank corps to loose some Pz38t in combat (hopefully some go to the force pool) to be able to reconstitute.
If almost all Pz38t are destroyed the PzCorps wont reconstitute any more although there are still tons of unused PzIV E on hand.

 

[Kraut]

Originally posted by Dan Neely

In the game, russian air killed during the winter war that don't reconsitute before fighting stops won't reconstitute until after barbarossa puts the red AF under attack again. the 'bomber' units in the RAF formation will stay permanantly dead once the battles are all used up. likewise I've had tank corps that've never reconstituted even when I've had a pile of panzers available.

In my latest game (1.8, luckily with added russian fighter production) the russian air force was really maulted during the Winter war, the (historically) miserably equipped finnish airforce together with some swedish aid killed approx 1800 russian planes and evaporated several russian fighters. Without the added production these units would have never reconstituted throughout the entire war !
The entire production of the I-16 (Nr. one plane in every soviet fighter unit) is 10/turn for the first 200 turns, during WinterWar I've already lost 922 I-16 !
As soon as these units have to fight against german Me-109 they'll be quickly downed and never come back even if the late war fighters arrive.

It's OK to have the russian airforce take a beating untill '44 but having them evaporate and never come back ist no good choice.

Setting a single Spitfire on top of every soviet (and UK) fighter squad would be far batter, this way an evaporated fighter squad will reconstitute immediately but without assigned equipment it would be suicide to send them on AS missions.

The allied player than has to rest these units for several turns until they've absorbed some equipment befor sending them into the skies again.

 

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Kraut
exactly, in turn 109 I had 99 Pz38 on hand (will be produced until turn 128) but 1200 PzIV E.

This is a 1941 tank, right? So surely they shouldn't be around at all for the first part of the scenario? Problematic.

 

[Kraut]

there are a lot abstractions in EAs production, the PzIV E being the only short barrel PzIV being produced (turn 1-131) followed by the only long-barrel model PzIV H turn 132+

In a scenario that has to cover such big time spans its probably easier to use one equipment to cover several similar production types or TOAW could present one with some nasty surprises (for example useing many different tipes of equimpment will expand the number of equipment that has to be shown in the units info dialog and IIRC TOAW will only the first two pages of equipment, the ones further to the bottom will not be shown.)

 

[Dan Neely]

IF you lost that many AC, you must've been intercepted by the Luftwaffe, with the Germans grounded, even bombing the airfields won't generate that many losses.

 

[Kraut]

Originally posted by Dan Neely
IF you lost that many AC, you must've been intercepted by the Luftwaffe, with the Germans grounded, even bombing the airfields won't generate that many losses.

There were probably 1-2 turns during my opponents Weserübung were Luftwaffe units engaged the soviet air force but that can only be accountet for approx 100-200 lost planes. Most of my losses probably came frome evaporations, at 50% proficiency 50% of the equipment (200 I-16 per fighter squad) is lost and the soviet air force evaporates easily. 500 Bombers supported by 500 fighters support a ground battle agains the few low quality enemy fighters ? More than once I saw my fighters going *poof* during such engagements, maybe bayause every axis plane flies with 115% air shock ?

 

[Dan Neely]

more rest. It's been my experiance that the russians are much less likely to evaporate if they're reasonably well supplied. Also, at least with land units equiptment lost due to evaporation (as opposed to combat immediately prior to) is all put back into the replacement pool. I've tested this.

 

[Kraut]

it's different with air units, I've noted down my losses at the beginning of a turn, made my attacks, had one fighter evaporation and immediately thereafter discovered that another 100 I-16 were lost.

 

[Mantis]

Originally posted by Dan Neely


just did a test of it.



~15 units with 1/100 LR squads 0/9999 LR AT- and 0/9999LT AT squads were killed in combat. replacements were 99999 of each. LRAT- and LRAT squads started on turn 1, LR squads not until 10. on turn 9 none of the evaped units were set to reconstitute. the next turn they all were.

Try this with replacement rates set to 10 for LRSs, and see if it makes any difference to when/how many of the 15 units come back.

 

[Mantis]

Originally posted by Dan Neely
IF you lost that many AC, you must've been intercepted by the Luftwaffe, with the Germans grounded, even bombing the airfields won't generate that many losses.

Yes it will. Kerry lost thousands of planes to my single Finn fighter, when all the German fighters were in France. I've also done a test and had the lone Finn fighter evap several Russian fighters in a single turn when all Red fighters started in perfect shape and no other Axis fighters were active.

Finland became an obsession for me for awhile, and I even had a couple test scenarios mailed to me by Mark to mess around with it. I'll let all you would-be Stalins in on a little secret: If you place all Russian bombers on the Siberian rail, and on comabt support, you don't need any fighter AS support. I've gone through 2 complete Finn campaigns, and have yet to have a single bomber take any signifigant damage, and I've had them all on CS since day 1. Turn the fighters on, even for a turn or two, and POOF! Evaps.

 

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Kraut
In a scenario that has to cover such big time spans its probably easier to use one equipment to cover several similar production types or TOAW could present one with some nasty surprises (for example useing many different tipes of equimpment will expand the number of equipment that has to be shown in the units info dialog and IIRC TOAW will only the first two pages of equipment, the ones further to the bottom will not be shown.)

TOAW only allows something like 24 equipment slots per unit. I've come up with a way around this for my OOB, and hopefully it'll even work!

 

[Mantis]

Elaborate!