Some D questions

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Just played J54 and a couple of vehicle related questions came up during the course of the game that I wasn't 100% sure about:

1) I had a sqd, atr, and 9-1 Ldr that killed a motion bypass vehicle with CC reaction fire in the MPh and turned it into a burning wreck. Also adjacent to this hex is a German smg halftrack. In the Def fire phase the atr group is marked first fire due to the rx fire. I now want to shoot the smg halftrack in Def fire with my atr. What are the mods? It is +3 for smoke, +1 small target, and -2 adjacent for sure (+2 to here). I don't think I can use leader since it didn't modify the atr in first fire. What is the to-hit penalty for the atr shot by a first fire marked squad?

2) My opponent had a stationary halftrack with a squad & LMG passenger marked first fire but *not* the halftrack. I moved two hexes away from it with a SU 57LL halftrack in my MPh. My opponent wanted to do a motion attempt citing the halftrack was not marked with first/final fire (just the passengers were). I didn't think he could do this citing D2.401. Who is right and why?

3) A bizarre situation. I fried that halftrack above, but he moved another halftrack adjacent to my 57LL halftrack in his MPh. This halftrack had a squad with a DC as passenger. Of course my 57LL halftrack missed with every single shot I fired and lost rof & missed with IF too. He was able to throw the DC at me and *of course* rolled a 1,3 position DR with a +2 final position mod (+3 thrown from non stopped conveyance, +1 front, -2 OT target = +2) resulting in a aerial AF attack. He then rolls a 2,3 effect which turns me into a burning wreck. What I wasn't sure was how to resolve the thrown attack against him. He rolled a 5 effect, so was the attack against him: +2 for his ce and +4 thrown = +6? So, 30 for a 5+6 = 11 is a 1mc or was that wrong? If so how should it have been done? It was late and I couldn’t find the answers.

4) One last thing that happened but I'd forgotten. He wanted to end a haftrack's MPh in the hex of an enemy vehicle that it couldn't kill with an original 5 DR or less, however the halftrack's passenger included the squad with DC mentioned above (The DC *could* potentially kill my vehicle with a 5 or less original DR). I didn't think the halftrack could end its MPh in the enemy-vehicle occupied hex because the halftrack itself couldn't kill the vehicle with an original 5 DR despite the squad & DC passenger being able to. Is that right?
 
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Brian W

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Corporal Kindel said:
1) I had a sqd, atr, and 9-1 Ldr that killed a motion bypass vehicle with reaction fire in the MPh and turned it into a burning wreck. Also adjacent to this hex is a German smg halftrack. In the Def fire phase the atr group is marked first fire due to the rx fire. I now want to shoot the smg halftrack in Def fire with my atr. What are the mods? It is +3 for smoke, +1 small target, and -2 adjacent for sure (+2 to here). I don't think I can use leader since it didn't modify the atr in first fire. What is the to-hit penalty for the atr shot by a first fire marked squad?
You cannot fire the ATR as it would be marked with First Fire along with the squad and leader, D7.21. You could use IFP as Final Fire to try to stun the CE crew.

Corporal Kindel said:
2) My opponent had a stationary halftrack with a squad & LMG passenger marked first fire but *not* the halftrack. I moved two hexes away from it with a SU 57LL halftrack in my MPh. My opponent wanted to do a motion attempt citing the halftrack was not marked with first/final fire (just the passengers were). I didn't think he could do this citing D2.401. Who is right and why?
I believe you are right. I do not think that you can seperate a vehicle and its PRC from a motion attempt. The vehicle is marked with a first fire counter, even if it is not the vehicle's weapons that have fired.

Corporal Kindel said:
3) A bizarre situation. I fried that halftrack above, but he moved another halftrack adjacent to my 57LL halftrack in his MPh. This halftrack had a squad with a DC. Of course my 57LL halftrack missed with every single shot I fired and lost rof & missed with IF too. He was able to throw the DC at me and *of course* rolled a 1,3 position DR, and a +2 final position mod (+3 thrown from non stopped conveyance, +1 front, -2 OT target = +2) resulting in a aerial AF attack. He then rolls a 2,3 effect which turns me into a burning wreck. What I wasn't sure was how to resolve the thrown attack against him. He rolled a 5 effect, so was the attack against him: +2 for his ce and +4 thrown = +6? So, 30 for a 5+6 = 11 is a 1mc or was that wrong? If so how should it have been done? It was late and I couldn’t find the answers.
Sounds right to me.
 

Larry

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Originally Posted by Corporal Kindel
1) I had a sqd, atr, and 9-1 Ldr that killed a motion bypass vehicle with reaction fire in the MPh and turned it into a burning wreck. Also adjacent to this hex is a German smg halftrack. In the Def fire phase the atr group is marked first fire due to the rx fire. I now want to shoot the smg halftrack in Def fire with my atr. What are the mods? It is +3 for smoke, +1 small target, and -2 adjacent for sure (+2 to here). I don't think I can use leader since it didn't modify the atr in first fire. What is the to-hit penalty for the atr shot by a first fire marked squad?
Response by Brian W
You cannot fire the ATR as it would be marked with First Fire along with the squad and leader, D7.21. You could use IFP as Final Fire to try to stun the CE crew.
Doesn't the marking per D7.21 "as appropriate for that attack" mean that the squad has used its IFP first fire opportunity but not its SW capacity? "As appropriate" should permit the squad to "first fire" its SW ATR and wax the next target.

Also, LATW do not get the -2 for adjacent target. Case L is missing the L that would permit use of that DRM modifier.
 

Ole Boe

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Larry said:
Doesn't the marking per D7.21 "as appropriate for that attack" mean that the squad has used its IFP first fire opportunity but not its SW capacity? "As appropriate" should permit the squad to "first fire" its SW ATR and wax the next target.
No, I'm fairly sure all SW are marked. The sentence reads: "that DEFENDER and all of its possessed SW ... are marked with ... a First or Final Fire counter as appropriate for that attack.". "as appropriate" only tells us to choose betwen a First Fire and a Final counter, not to only mark those weapons that actually attacked.

Also, LATW do not get the -2 for adjacent target. Case L is missing the L that would permit use of that DRM modifier.
But ATR ignore the L note since it is not using its own To Hit Table - so it essentially uses the same To Hit DRM as non-LATW. This is clearer if you use the tables on the IIFT(M)QRDC ;)
 

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Thanks for the redirection to your synthesis of the cards. I have used them in the past but not typically to do rules research. I thought that MMP and the errata had brought the cards in line with yours ... guess not.

Mark Pitcavage's LATW cheat has the same information: http://www.desperationmorale.com/. Knew it but blew it.

I had read the "all marked" with the CC counter in light of the Q&A that the destruction of the vehicle obviates the placement of the CC counter on the location without considering the pentultimate clause "and also with" independent of the subject ... "that defender and all of its SW." Had to be too good to be true!
 
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Thanks for the answers guys. I was hoping for some rules references for the passenger fired vs halftrack non-fired for motion attempts in 2) & if passengers are considered part of the vehicle for purposes of 5 kill DR for purposes of ending a halftrack in an enemy occupied hex in 3) which would be a great vehicle lockup-sleaze ploy for halftracks with passengers+DCs. Usually the intuitive rules answers don’t always fly when it comes to ASL (kind of like the realism argument), so it’s always good to have Q&As that are grounded in the rule-book.

By the way, I though of another thing that I couldn't remember that night:

5) He had a broken squad that rolled a 2,2 CS roll when its halftrack got smashed (CS5). What was the penalty for broken units and CS (+1 or +2 or something like that)? I know there is one, just don't remember what it was. Both that pesky broke-DC-chucking-sqd and the SPW crew passed that CS roll as I remember.

I definitely learned the value of DC throwing squad-passengers in halftracks in this scenario!
 

alanp

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Corporal Kindel said:
I was hoping for some rules references for the passenger fired vs halftrack non-fired for motion attempts in 2) & if passengers are considered part of the vehicle for purposes of 5 kill DR for purposes of ending a halftrack in an enemy occupied hex in 3) which would be a great vehicle lockup-sleaze ploy for halftracks with passengers+DCs.

5) He had a broken squad that rolled a 2,2 CS roll when its halftrack got smashed (CS5). What was the penalty for broken units and CS (+1 or +2 or something like that)? I know there is one, just don't remember what it was. Both that pesky broke-DC-chucking-sqd and the SPW crew passed that CS roll as I remember.
QUOTE]

qouting D2.6, ". . .unless it can, at the moment and position of entry into that hex, attack that AFV (regardless of its To Hit possibility) and be capable of destroying or shocking it with an Original TK or IFT DR of 5 (using a non-Depletable ammo type available to the vehicle)."

The "it" in the first line certainly seems to be the vehicle/its armament; also, in the last line, I'd argue that the passenger-possessed DC isn't "a non-Depletable ammo type available to the vehicle."

D56.9 explains that "(t)he Shock/Stun DRM applicable to inherent crews does not apply to Passengers but, if they happen to be broken, a +1 DRM applies to the Survival DR of those Passengers."
 
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