So you failed to kill the halftrack in Melee...

tipsyweasel

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We're a little confused about the options for the halftrack.

Here's the situation: a halftrack with a squad passenger gets stunned on the German player turn. So it stops and buttons up. In the American player turn, a 7-4-7 squad advances into the halftrack's hex, but fails to kill it in CC, but he does manage to Immobilize it. So the 7-4-7 is marked with a Melee counter, but the vehicle is not.

First question: does a BU passenger in a ht count as "escorting personnel"?

On the German turn, what can the immobilized ht do? Can it unbutton in the MPh and Bounding Fire (along with the passenger squad)? Or can it not fire until the AFPh? I guess it boils down to what an Immobilized vehicle can do during the MPh.

Thanks!
 

jrv

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On the German turn, what can the immobilized ht do? Can it unbutton in the MPh and Bounding Fire (along with the passenger squad)? Or can it not fire until the AFPh? I guess it boils down to what an Immobilized vehicle can do during the MPh.
It can definitely use the MPh to unload the squad, which, since it isn't held in Melee, should be able to fire in the AFPh. Since it already spending points for that, I imagine it can unbutton as well.

JR
 

Vinnie

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An immobilised vehicle can still spend MPs it just cannot spend a start MP or change VCA.
 

tipsyweasel

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It can definitely use the MPh to unload the squad, which, since it isn't held in Melee, should be able to fire in the AFPh. Since it already spending points for that, I imagine it can unbutton as well.

JR
If the passengers unload into a Melee location, are they not part of the melee?

In our actual game, we let the ht and passengers use Bounding First Fire on the hapless 7-4-7, and that was probably not right.
 

Vinnie

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Certainly the HT and passengers can use BF against the 7-4-7. I'd argue that the sqd unloading was not held ion melee either but that's an arguement that has been hashed over several times.
 

SCK40

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This question just occured to me in the given situation.

Could the BU Passenger be marked with an Opportunity Fire counter in the PFPh? The vehicle cannot by rule, but that's not a problem. In the MPh the halftrack changes its status from BU to CE. In AFPh the Passengers then fire (now being CE, sharing that status with that of the ht crew) without the AFPh limitations/penalties.

I don't see anything to prevent it in the Opp Fire rule unless you interpret the change of BU/CE status as movement (despite the fact that the unit itself spent no MP). Since the change of status does not "count" as movement for the vehicle itself, it would be a stretch at best to rule that the Passengers "moved".
 

Jerry Simmons

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If the passengers unload into a Melee location, are they not part of the melee?
No. They will be after the CCPh, unless they advance out of that location of course. See http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?98623-A11.15-Melee-Timing
In our actual game, we let the ht and passengers use Bounding First Fire on the hapless 7-4-7, and that was probably not right.
Looks to me like you did this correctly. PRC are not infantry, so not held in Melee.
 

Jerry Simmons

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This question just occured to me in the given situation.

Could the BU Passenger be marked with an Opportunity Fire counter in the PFPh? The vehicle cannot by rule, but that's not a problem. In the MPh the halftrack changes its status from BU to CE. In AFPh the Passengers then fire (now being CE, sharing that status with that of the ht crew) without the AFPh limitations/penalties.

I don't see anything to prevent it in the Opp Fire rule unless you interpret the change of BU/CE status as movement (despite the fact that the unit itself spent no MP). Since the change of status does not "count" as movement for the vehicle itself, it would be a stretch at best to rule that the Passengers "moved".
Only infantry/cavalry can use Opp Fire.
 

Brian W

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Yes, BU passengers are escorting personnel.
 

Vinnie

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If I recall correctly the HT does not need to UN button. Since the reason it was BU was the stun counter placed on it, when this is flipped the vehicle resorts to it's natural state thus will be CE as it's an open top vehicle. The passengers will be do too.
 

SCK40

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Thanks Jerry. Always helps to check the definitions carefully. Seemed like too good a trick not to have been tried before.
 

tipsyweasel

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If I recall correctly the HT does not need to UN button. Since the reason it was BU was the stun counter placed on it, when this is flipped the vehicle resorts to it's natural state thus will be CE as it's an open top vehicle. The passengers will be do too.
I don't think that's right. The ht will stay BU until it unbuttons during a MPh or APh. I don't think there's a rule about vehicles automatically changing CE/BU status at the end of a Player Turn.
 

tipsyweasel

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It can definitely use the MPh to unload the squad, which, since it isn't held in Melee, should be able to fire in the AFPh. Since it already spending points for that, I imagine it can unbutton as well.

JR
Right, unbuttoning doesn't take any MPs. So can the ht unbutton and BFF before any DFire (from outside the hex) happens? I think this is the case from other threads.

Can an Immobilized vehicle spend Delay MPs? Just in case it gets ROF! It sounds like this is legal, since it's not a Start MP. How about spending MPs for smoke? That also sounds legal. Wow, an Immobile vehicle can do anything except become Mobile! ;-)
 

Bret Hildebran

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Right, unbuttoning doesn't take any MPs. So can the ht unbutton and BFF before any DFire (from outside the hex) happens? I think this is the case from other threads.

Can an Immobilized vehicle spend Delay MPs? Just in case it gets ROF! It sounds like this is legal, since it's not a Start MP. How about spending MPs for smoke? That also sounds legal. Wow, an Immobile vehicle can do anything except become Mobile! ;-)
Declaring bounding fire to start your move is the one case where the defender can declare a "gun duel" and the vehicle will lose in most cases (C5.33). So any infantry fire from outside the hex would occur first & typically ordnance would too if it wasn't subject to a +2 or more firer based modifier.

Although in this case the passengers are actually held in melee so they wouldn't be able to shoot themselves per A11.71.

Immobile vehicles can spend MPs so sure, they can delay, throw smoke, pivot the turret - all but move, change VCA or spend a start MP basically.

Here's the rule that says passengers of an immobilized vehicle are held in melee BUT can still unload into the hex and be in melee on foot instead. Although note in this case it says "REMAIN in melee" so there's no doubt that once they jump off the HT they are in the Melee immediately:

"A11.71 OTHER WITHDRAWAL FROM CC: Passengers/Riders of Immobile vehicles are held in Melee, but Cavalry, cyclists, skiers, and Passengers/Riders of Mobile vehicles who survive their initial round of CC are not required to remain in Melee. These units may dismount during their next MPh and remain in Melee without their prior handicap, as may Passengers/Riders of Immobile vehicles, or they may move out of the Melee Location in their mounted mode normally during their next MPh."
 

Jerry Simmons

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Sorry, didn't mean to mislead. Seems Passengers/Riders of Immobile vehicles are a special case (that I missed).
 
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tipsyweasel

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"A11.71 OTHER WITHDRAWAL FROM CC: Passengers/Riders of Immobile vehicles are held in Melee, but Cavalry, cyclists, skiers, and Passengers/Riders of Mobile vehicles who survive their initial round of CC are not required to remain in Melee. These units may dismount during their next MPh and remain in Melee without their prior handicap, as may Passengers/Riders of Immobile vehicles, or they may move out of the Melee Location in their mounted mode normally during their next MPh."
Thanks! That definitely clears up nearly all the questions.

I'm still digesting the part about the ht firing its MG and using the gun duel rules. Doesn't that just apply to ordnance? Can a vehicle BFF its MGs before DFire if it's the first thing it does in the MPh? Although in this situation, if the Passengers are locked in Melee, they would also be subject to the attack (but with a +2 DRM????) That's kind of funny to think about, the ht crew is spraying bullets wildly and the passengers are trying to stay out of the line of fire!
 

klasmalmstrom

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Declaring bounding fire to start your move is the one case where the defender can declare a "gun duel" and the vehicle will lose in most cases (C5.33). So any infantry fire from outside the hex would occur first & typically ordnance would too if it wasn't subject to a +2 or more firer based modifier.
A not-so-long-ago Perry Sez declared though that only the Defender(s) who is the target of such BFF can declare a Gun Duel - and since the 7-4-7 in the hex is locked in Melee, no such Defender declare Gun Duel is possible I believe.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Yes, BU passengers are escorting personnel.
No - see A11.51 (with the J6 errata):
"...There is a +1 DRM to the CC DR for every unbroken, unpinned, and armed enemy HS/crew Personnel counter (+2 for each such squad) in the CC Location (and not in the act of Withdrawal) at the time of each attack unless they are BU...."
 
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Brian W

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No - see A11.51 (with the J6 errata):
"...There is a +1 DRM to the CC DR for every unbroken, unpinned, and armed enemy HS/crew Personnel counter (+2 for each such squad) in the CC Location (and not in the act of Withdrawal) at the time of each attack unless they are BU
...."
Thanks Klas, I was NASLRBH and thought I knew the rule.
 

jrv

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If I recall correctly the HT does not need to UN button. Since the reason it was BU was the stun counter placed on it, when this is flipped the vehicle resorts to it's natural state thus will be CE as it's an open top vehicle. The passengers will be do too.
D5.34 "A Stunned AFV and its Passengers immediately become BU if CE, and may not regain CE status (even if BU when the Stun occurred) until able to do so as per D5.33 in a subsequent Player Turn."

The Stun counter is not a temporary BU state. After you flip the Stun, you must replace it with a BU counter (for OT vehicles).

JR
 
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