So, what do you think of D&D 4th edition

M Faulkner

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I dig the 3.5 version of the D&D game. The only aspects I felt had opportunity for significant improvement were:

1) Effects of damage on character performance. The whole "perfectly fine until 0 HP" thing is annoying. I always house-ruled this when DMing by placing living combatants who drop below 25% of their max HPs automatically at "Fatigued" status. Already Fatigued characters would become Exhausted.

2) Skill group consolidation. Probably too many different types of skills to throw rank points against.

3) Single-monster, single-page in the Monster Manuals. A 2nd Edition method which never should have been taken away.

4) Reduce emphasis on magic items in forming character power and potential.

4th Edition struck out big-time. The whole "Bloodied" character status is a near meaningless disappointment which didn't address Issue #1. Skills and multi-classing are excessively restricted and oversimplified. The only improvement was the monster presentation layout as seen in Issue #3. Magic items were de-emphasized but now the item construction rules are excessively simplified. Mucking around with available character races and classes was completely unnecessary. Since when is "Dragonborn" a classic D&D character archetype?

It seems like 4th Ed. is a throw-back to the 1970s perspective of the game, which flies in the face of RPG evolution and learnings over the last 20 years. Big disappointment.
Portal,

Thanks for the input. I have not had a chance to look over the changes, but I for one like 3.5 and will most likely stay with it.
 

Dr Zaius

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I've been reading reviews on other sites and it seems there is a lot of anger over the direction D&D has been taken with the 4th Edition. I haven't had a chance to look at it in person, but I hear many people saying this isn't a revision but an entirely different game.
 

M Faulkner

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I've been reading reviews on other sites and it seems there is a lot of anger over the direction D&D has been taken with the 4th Edition. I haven't had a chance to look at it in person, but I hear many people saying this isn't a revision but an entirely different game.
I have heard this also from some friends who have looked it over.
 

MerricB

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I've been reading reviews on other sites and it seems there is a lot of anger over the direction D&D has been taken with the 4th Edition. I haven't had a chance to look at it in person, but I hear many people saying this isn't a revision but an entirely different game.
I heard a *lot* of that about 3e. :)

That said, 4e does a lot of things differently. The core of the system (roll d20 to hit, add modifiers, and compare to AC) is pretty much the same as every other edition. The big change is how it breaks up abilities into powers that are "at will", "encounter" and "daily". It's a pretty good system, but will you think it's D&D? Beats me.

All I know is that it feels like D&D to me. I find it really, really good to DM - and my players seem to enjoy it as well - and the way it handles goblins, kobolds and orcs is brilliant - they feel different now, rather than just being different sizes of "goblin".

Cheers!
 
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background:
Me - (DM) Played a little in the 80s. read 3.5 for fun & soloed some encounters.
PC -Played in the 80s.

Last night: We chuck down the starter set tiles. Use 1 rolled PC and 4 pre-gen characters...and have a great time. He charges into the first encounter and has a rollicking brawl with goblins. Decides to use more caution and tactics for the second encounter where the wizard earns his keep by frying some minions.

Impression? I think 4e did what they hoped. The action was furious rather than fiddly. All PCs played a part (even the fumblefingers who missed every swing at the goblins finally got a Crit later). Plenty of flavour. Even two very rusty guys were enjoying role playing in the rather sparse starter dungeon.

It sure seems like a fun, lively system to role play to your hearts content.

It will never be what everyone wanted, but we sure enjoyed it and I am looking forward to a lot more.:D
 
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I've been reading reviews on other sites and it seems there is a lot of anger over the direction D&D has been taken with the 4th Edition. I haven't had a chance to look at it in person, but I hear many people saying this isn't a revision but an entirely different game.
If revision means tweaking the system then I suppose it is more than that. The core themes are all there and the mechanics are functionally the same so I wouldn't call it a new game. I guess it depends on what the game is to them. To me it is the framework to make-believe being an interesting character in a fantasy world where I have lots of adventures. From what I have seen 4e does that (and well).

Portal doesn't like the dragonborn...so don't play one. I always thought half orcs were dopey (you've seen the pictures of orcs right...who, but another orc, would mate with that:eek::paperbag:) so I would never have played one.
 

Whizbang1963

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I find it interesting that Tunnels and Trolls ( a D20 system created approx the same time as D&D) which was so much maligned by those of us playing D&D has managed to survive all this time without a 2d, 3d, 4th edition....

Frustrating that Hasborg/WOTC/TSR is just usng D&D as a cash cow to drive a publishing business. Instead of driving depth into what already exists, they go back and keep recreating/tweaking what we all spent so much time making work for us.

I have 40 some of 3.5 books and won't spend another dime on 4ed. Can't afford to keep replacing the same books every 4-7 years because they want to "tweak" it some more...

easier to play WOW on an RP server...
cheaper too...
 
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I find it interesting that Tunnels and Trolls ( a D20 system created approx the same time as D&D) which was so much maligned by those of us playing D&D has managed to survive all this time without a 2d, 3d, 4th edition....

Frustrating that Hasborg/WOTC/TSR is just usng D&D as a cash cow to drive a publishing business. Instead of driving depth into what already exists, they go back and keep recreating/tweaking what we all spent so much time making work for us.

I have 40 some of 3.5 books and won't spend another dime on 4ed. Can't afford to keep replacing the same books every 4-7 years because they want to "tweak" it some more...

easier to play WOW on an RP server...
cheaper too...
but honestly, don't you think most people would have grown bored using AD&D 1e for 30 years? how many modules could you create before some other shake-up was needed?

Isn't tunnels and trolls a much smaller market with a much more DIY atmosphere anyway? that would mean a changed rule might not need to be associated with a specific edition. I don't know much about it though.

Fair enough to not replace your books. If you are that deep into 3.5 you can probably keep on having plenty of fun with that.

My issue with many complainers is that their mindset is 'YOU CAN'T!' to the companies. A much more meaningful (and less annoying and whiny) is 'I WON'T.' like you have stated.
 

Whizbang1963

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but honestly, don't you think most people would have grown bored using AD&D 1e for 30 years? how many modules could you create before some other shake-up was needed?

Isn't tunnels and trolls a much smaller market with a much more DIY atmosphere anyway? that would mean a changed rule might not need to be associated with a specific edition. I don't know much about it though.

Fair enough to not replace your books. If you are that deep into 3.5 you can probably keep on having plenty of fun with that.

My issue with many complainers is that their mindset is 'YOU CAN'T!' to the companies. A much more meaningful (and less annoying and whiny) is 'I WON'T.' like you have stated.
they absolutely can and will :smoke: it's up to us as to whether or not we'll continue to feed the engine that drives the changes.

1ed. I think AD&D or even 2ed AD&D was far enough to go. It's roleplaying. There would have always been areas for a good gm to be able to continue to improvise and develop their own adventures. There were two GMs that I game with that had created incredible worlds that we played in. I think for us, the challenge was more less and less time than it was creativity. I can see where others would have burned out tho. There are times it would be best to just grab a ready made to do a fast couple hours play...
 

jwb3

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I always thought half orcs were dopey (you've seen the pictures of orcs right...who, but another orc, would mate with that:eek::paperbag:) so I would never have played one.
You're assuming the mating was voluntary on the part of the non-orc involved... :eek:gre: :bandit:

Seriously, though, I understand completely what you mean... just from the other direction: Given what orcs look like, why would one find a human female the least bit worth ravishing?!?

(But then, this is part of the whole "It's a fantasy world" thing. Given that there are half-orcs, QED some orcs must find human women worth the effort. To ask why is like asking why there's magic.)


I think for us, the challenge was more less and less time than it was creativity. I can see where others would have burned out tho.
I think there's a relatively small relationship between a new edition and a rebirth of creativity. Sure, it causes some new ideas to germinate, but most of the campaign process doesn't really change.

One of the reasons why they had to go and develop a new look for D&D 3rd edition, with all the pointy armor and such... because the new rules by themselves weren't going to really rejuvenate things.


John
 
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I think there's a relatively small relationship between a new edition and a rebirth of creativity. Sure, it causes some new ideas to germinate, but most of the campaign process doesn't really change.

One of the reasons why they had to go and develop a new look for D&D 3rd edition, with all the pointy armor and such... because the new rules by themselves weren't going to really rejuvenate things.


John
I see what you mean and I think it turns out Whizbang and I may be talking about slightly different things...

It is probably true that if a group is busy with an ongoing campaign then a new edition will probably not spark any creativity.

I think what I was trying to say is that as a line of products, the general interest would fizzle. How many modules would you sell today for
-D&D Basic
-Spelljammer
-??
...I know, I know, there will be a pile of people here and on other niche sites that might actually be clamouring for a new Spelljammer module...but would you bet your retirement on the sales?
 

jwb3

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I see what you mean and I think it turns out Whizbang and I may be talking about slightly different things...
Well, I guess you are. You seem to be talking about the market for selling new products (such as as adventures) related to the edition, while he seems to be talking about the ability to create new home-grown adventures. Obviously those are going to get different mileage.


John
 

MerricB

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I find it interesting that Tunnels and Trolls ( a D20 system created approx the same time as D&D) which was so much maligned by those of us playing D&D has managed to survive all this time without a 2d, 3d, 4th edition....
Niche markets can survive without change; I don't think T&T has much of a market share. For the market leader, things are very different.

Cheers!
 

M Faulkner

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Ahhhh... some activity on this thread.

Most of the players in my area haven't bought into 4e. The local book stores were expecting to have a lot of 3.5 stuff to sell. WRONG.... you can hardly find any 3.5 stuff to buy.
 

Whizbang1963

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there is still some floating around out my way..I'm looking for the rest of the FR stuff I did not pick up already...not gonna rebuy...just not gonna do it...
 

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I guess I was kind of lucky that way. When the official core and FR stuff was coming out, I evaluated them all on a case-by-case basis knowing my personal campaign style and what resources I would need to set one up. I was able to buy all the WOTC stuff I considered "good" for my campaigns. What I couldn't do is get as much of the TPP adventures I wanted (some are REALLY good in their own right and others had some really good ideas that I'd modify) before everyone switched to 4e. Oh well. I still have a TON of 3.5e stuff that I can use and I am not planning on upgrading to 4e (particularly in light of the fact that the changes in the magic system necessitated a complete FUBAR of the FR timeline - a la spellstorm). NOT IMPRESSED. NOT HAPPY.
 

Whizbang1963

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anyone running any online games in 3.5 any more? Used to be a bunch of email based ones going on but they seem to peter out pretty fast..
 

ChrisM

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I got a look at some of the 4th Edition stuff recently - and Wizards has definteily lost me as a customer. I never even ran 3rd Edition stuff - my group just stuck with 2E until 2007 or so, but I kept picking up books, miniatures and even a boxed set of teh Core Rules.

4E is a completely different game, and one that does not appeal to me. Like someone said up thread - if I ever get the urge for FRP again, I'll just dust off the books on the shelf and use them.

I'm sorry they went this way - I think there was penty of room to add to settings for 3E and 3.5 and to continue selling product.
 

Doc Martin

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I owned 4E for about 3 days and then sold to a friend. Seemed too much like playing M:TG. Which has been my complaint about WOTC since they took over and put out 3E.

If I go back to RPGs it will be either Ars Magica or Twilight 2013.
 
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Hmm sept 09 last comment. Sorry if I am reviving a stale chat.

First off, I am a veteran, I remember when the entire genre was invented.
Second, I can give you as many reasons why 3.5 sucks, as you can why 4th is not worth it. You either like a product or not.
My 14 4th edition books make it plain I like the design. I run a 4th edition game, everyone likes it in my group, but none of them are old hands.

I also play on the weekend in a 3.5 game. I like it ok to play in it. I wouldn't have any use for a complete set of books if you gave them to me for free.
It's too much hassle to run it. Takes too long to make the PCs up just so they are not dead weight in a 10th or higher group. I'm just glad the group I play in, is not devoted to power gaming.

I don't think 4th is perfect. I think it's closer to it than 3.5 though. I hated 2nd enough to ditch the books for peanuts though. Just got fed up trying to make it work as a DM.

I fully expect this product to be cut lose, defacto abandoned and replaced once they run the course of milking it. It's the nature of business, and they are in the business of selling books.
But unless they reeeeeally do a miraculous job of it, I plan to milk the use out of my purchase first too. It's the nature of the hobby too :) I am not in the business of replacing my books.
I think that is the MAIN reason people are sticking with 3.5 and it has nothing to do with it being better, they just resent having bought all the books and now it seems like they did it for nothing.

I suspect if MMP released ASL version 3, and made it necessary to rebuy all the modules, they would cause a lot of arguing too. Of course the ASL crowd would still buy it, but we are after all quite the interesting bunch of addicts :)

The oddest comment is the analogy with World of Warcraft. I do wish they would get it right. It doesn't look like WoW, WoW looks like 4th edition.
Not that it matters a single bit too me.

I like 4th, it's clean, well organized, user friendly to noobs, easy to run, and that's all I require in my product.

If they make 5th edition by 2015, so be it.
I'll be ok with it. Doesn't mean I'm going to need it though.
 
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