So is Scotland still a part of the UK?

Paul_RS

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Nice. It appears an ******* has hacked your account and is posting in your name.



I’m sorry that you are so obviously scared of the world.
Have you read any papers recently, other than the Sun and the Express I mean. You've been sold a pup, my friend. Let's reconvene in 6 months time and continue this discussion.
 

MatrimSaric

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Actually I subscribe to the telegraph and most days the Guardian as well (as its free and has a different poltiical line to the T). But don't let reality get in the way of your attempt to pretend that anyone that is not of your opinion is a knuckle dragging idiot in hock to the gutter press. That worked out really well for the remain campaign so seems an eminently sensible way to carry on.

The 6 months though seems sensible as doubt anyone is going to convince anyone else of anything at the moment.
 

Paul_RS

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Actually I subscribe to the telegraph and most days the Guardian as well (as its free and has a different poltiical line to the T). But don't let reality get in the way of your attempt to pretend that anyone that is not of your opinion is a knuckle dragging idiot in hock to the gutter press. That worked out really well for the remain campaign so seems an eminently sensible way to carry on.

The 6 months though seems sensible as doubt anyone is going to convince anyone else of anything at the moment.
There is little you or I can do anyway. Keep working, paying taxes and hope that something resembling leadership emerges from the current governmental paralysis we are witnessing. None of them would be selected for never mind pass a junior NCO's course based upon current performance. Apologies for any unintended offence.

Neither party covered themselves in glory in the campaign, 'project fear' versus 'project dishonesty on an industrial scale'. Appalling by both sides, simply appalling.

At the moment it feels like we have just burned the house down because we were unhappy with a couple of pieces of furniture. :nuts:
 
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Mister T

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Pretty sure there will be some significant concessions offered by the EU and pretty sure UK Gov can then offer a second Referendum on a legitimate basis. And UK will then likely vote Remain.

Agree entirely with you.

If the EU don't offer such concessions then we should paddle our own boat and stick two fingers up to them. I think we're in the more healthier position of the two to secure our future, problems, and pain notwithstanding. If Scotland and NI then wish to go it alone then so be it.
Why would you extract a lot of concessions if you leave? It makes little sense. A husband telling her former wife that he is still going to bring his dirty laundry? :) Is the UK sit on some essential commodity or producing some goods critical to the functioning of Europe? Port Talbot steel?
The decision of the British people should be respected, because it reflects their preferences after a lengthy campaign and 40+ years of participation in Europe so people can't be blamed for having been misinformed. And it was not a technical issue.

And who wants a partner that can leave at any time in the future through another referendum? The blackmail would continue for ever.

Playing the Commonwealth card is an option. You'll get cheap food. But it is not costless. Consider strengthening the Royal Navy because it is not what is used to be (yes ships cost a lot of money to build/maintain).
 

olli

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Why would you extract a lot of concessions if you leave? It makes little sense. A husband telling her former wife that he is still going to bring his dirty laundry? :) Is the UK sit on some essential commodity or producing some goods critical to the functioning of Europe? Port Talbot steel?
The decision of the British people should be respected, because it reflects their preferences after a lengthy campaign and 40+ years of participation in Europe so people can't be blamed for having been misinformed. And it was not a technical issue.

And who wants a partner that can leave at any time in the future through another referendum? The blackmail would continue for ever.

Playing the Commonwealth card is an option. You'll get cheap food. But it is not costless. Consider strengthening the Royal Navy because it is not what is used to be (yes ships cost a lot of money to build/maintain).
The biggest problem was that all parties lied or could not tell the population of the U.K. exactly what the ramifications were of leaving. A lot of people thought that it was mainly about stopping immigration ! As simple as that and a lot of those voted out due to that belief!!!!
 

Martin Mayers

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The biggest problem was that all parties lied or could not tell the population of the U.K. exactly what the ramifications were of leaving. A lot of people thought that it was mainly about stopping immigration ! As simple as that and a lot of those voted out due to that belief!!!!
Honestly, I think it's more down to the fact that the inners based most of their argument on an economic basis....people's pensions would be damaged. The stock market would be hit....the pound would plummet.

But hey....guess what? Most people where I live, Bury, Bolton, Blackburn, Oldham, don't have a final salary or defined contribution scheme. They certainly don't have shares. And they don't normally go on fancy holidays to Europe. They've got pretty much fuk all....so they've taken a risk on the basis that they can't be any worse than they already are.

And it's upset those with their pensions and shares and the like......which is basically tough **** on them (us)
 

Martin Mayers

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Why would you extract a lot of concessions if you leave? It makes little sense. A husband telling her former wife that he is still going to bring his dirty laundry? :) Is the UK sit on some essential commodity or producing some goods critical to the functioning of Europe? Port Talbot steel?
The decision of the British people should be respected, because it reflects their preferences after a lengthy campaign and 40+ years of participation in Europe so people can't be blamed for having been misinformed. And it was not a technical issue.

And who wants a partner that can leave at any time in the future through another referendum? The blackmail would continue for ever.

Playing the Commonwealth card is an option. You'll get cheap food. But it is not costless. Consider strengthening the Royal Navy because it is not what is used to be (yes ships cost a lot of money to build/maintain).
You misunderstood...I was talking of a 2nd referendum. Concessions will be offered to try to KEEP US IN the club.

And a fair deal will be offered if we ultimately definitely do leave because we're an important market for the EU and we can hurt the EU more than we in turn can be hurt. What's critical is not so much what we sell into Europe (and we sell plenty) it's what we also buy from Europe. I don't think the likes of BMW and Volkswagen would share your gung ho view. So it makes no sense to play hardball, although everyone will start out by feigning hardball. Such is how negotiations are conducted.

And if we really aren't important, and no concessions are offered, then good luck to the EU. Despite being in some disarray right now, we will press on as a country and make the best of it.

Your analogy regarding husband and wife is flawed. Most divorces end with both ex-partners trying to negotiate the best way out, usually for the sake of the children. Concessions are gained, concessions are made. Usually. Unless the divorce is so bitter. Then inevitably all parties come out of the whole thing worse off.
 
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Mister T

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The UK is a substantive market but not an essential one. As already written, Germany has a huge trade surplus and can live with such a bump. And the British elite are addicted to German cars, they will continue to buy them in some numbers, no matter how expensive they become (they are not going to buy Lincolns he he) and some fancy cars bought by London bankers will be bought by the Frankfurt bankers instead.

The numbers can't be changed: it's 440 million versus 70 million. The GDP ratio would be a bit lower but still overwhelming, to proxy the relative impact on bilateral trade flows.

I see the transfer of some UK troops to Baltic states as a desperate bid to prove the UK's value to Europe. It might work (or not).
 

Mister T

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The UK is a substantive market but not an essential one. As already written, Germany has a huge trade surplus and can live with such a bump. And the British elite are addicted to German cars, they will continue to buy them in some numbers, no matter how expensive they become (they are not going to buy Lincolns he he) and some fancy cars bought by London bankers will be bought by the Frankfurt bankers instead.

The numbers can't be changed: it's 440 million versus 70 million. The GDP ratio would be a bit lower but still overwhelming, to proxy the relative impact on bilateral trade flows.

I see the transfer of some UK troops to Baltic states as a desperate bid to prove the UK's value to Europe. It might work (or not).
 

Martin Mayers

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The UK is a substantive market but not an essential one. As already written, Germany has a huge trade surplus and can live with such a bump. And the British elite are addicted to German cars, they will continue to buy them in some numbers, no matter how expensive they become (they are not going to buy Lincolns he he) and some fancy cars bought by London bankers will be bought by the Frankfurt bankers instead.

The numbers can't be changed: it's 440 million versus 70 million. The GDP ratio would be a bit lower but still overwhelming, to proxy the relative impact on bilateral trade flows.

I see the transfer of some UK troops to Baltic states as a desperate bid to prove the UK's value to Europe. It might work (or not).
So no need for concessions or any efforts made to fight to keep us in the EU. We all move on and do our best. And we won't, apparently according to you, be hardly missed. So, basically everyone's happy.

Let's see how it all pans out and whether or not you're correct on this.

Also, be interesting see which survives longest, the UK or the EU.
 

MajorDomo

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Whatever "side" you are on, it is a really commendable, civilized breakup.

When states in the US wanted to leave the union of states; the would be remaining states raised an army, conscripted virtually every immigrant landing on the US shores and marched South.

There they burned cities, burned their crops, blockaded them, starved them, killed/imprisoned any resistance and organized the would be secessionists into military zones.

Rich
 

jrv

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When states in the US wanted to leave the union of states; the would be remaining states raised an army, conscripted virtually every immigrant landing on the US shores and marched South.

There they burned cities, burned their crops, blockaded them, starved them, killed/imprisoned any resistance and organized the would be secessionists into military zones.
Since the customary fate of traitors is hanging, I take it you are claiming a tactical victory.

JR
 
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MajorDomo

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Since the customary fate of traitors is hanging, I take it you are claiming a tactical victory.

JR
You are only a traitor if jackboots like you can subjugate the leavers.

Otherwise, they are freedom fighting heroes, see the American Revolution (this is where the American colonies, traitors to Britain won their freedom).

Rich
 

jrv

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You are only a traitor if jackboots like you can subjugate the leavers.
In an ironic twist, after the war the wrong people ended up as "strange fruit." Perhaps it was a mistake to ignore the wisdom of our ancestors and not to follow the old traditions.

JR
 

Delirium

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A friend of mine, a diplomat, is married to a senior British diplomat. They are both based in Eastern Europe, working in their respective embassies. Two points are of note:

- The staff of the UK Foreign Office are, almost to a man and woman, utterly horrified by what they feel to be a negation of 30 years of foreign policy. They have lost their confidence in the political leadership, and don't look forward to spending the next 10 years of their careers negotiating an exit and aftermath which they believe to be an error of grave proportions;

- The chances of article 50 not being activated and implemented are regarded as very low, effectively requiring a general election result in which a resolutely pro-remain party wins an outright majority, that is the liberal democrats.

Not a happy place to work, apparently.
 
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Mister T

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A friend of mine, a diplomat, is married to a senior British diplomat. They are both based in Eastern Europe, working in their respective embassies. Two points are of note:

- The staff of the UK Foreign Office are, almost to a man and woman, utterly horrified by what they feel to be a negation of 30 years of foreign policy. They have lost their confidence in the political leadership, and don't look forward to spending the next 10 years of their careers negotiating an exit and aftermath which they believe to be an error of grave proportions;

- The chances of article 50 not being activated and implemented are regarded as very low, effectively requiring a general election result in which a resolutely pro-remain party wins an outright majority, that is they lib Dems.

Not a happy place to work, apparently.
Sounds like a sound assessment of the situation, something that does not surprise me from these fine gentlemen.
 
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