Sniper attack sequence question

[JimWhite]

This may have been asked before but...

American players activates German SAN...and the German die roll is a '1'. The selected target Location contains an 8-1 leader and a 6-6-6 squad. Random selection is a Yahtzee...and the German whacks the leader.

What happens next? Does the squad take his LLMC and then the German rolls his other sniper attack against the squad?

Or vice versa?

 

[Binchois]

I would play that the LLMC occurs before rolling for the possible sniping of the 6-6-6. This in accordance with 14.1:

A14.1 The Sniper attack occurs after resolving all effects of the DR that activated it, but not before resolving (14.3) all (if any) Sniper attacks made prior to it.
​

In this case, the first snipe is what "activated" the second one, and the LLMC is one of its "effects".

 

[ecz]

I would play that the LLMC occurs before rolling for the possible sniping of the 6-6-6. This in accordance with 14.1:

A14.1 The Sniper attack occurs after resolving all effects of the DR that activated it, but not before resolving (14.3) all (if any) Sniper attacks made prior to it.
​

In this case, the first snipe is what "activated" the second one, and the LLMC is one of its "effects".

I agree (and have played this way from day one)

 

[Russ Isaia]

I would play that the LLMC occurs before rolling for the possible sniping of the 6-6-6. This in accordance with 14.1:

A14.1 The Sniper attack occurs after resolving all effects of the DR that activated it, but not before resolving (14.3) all (if any) Sniper attacks made prior to it.
​

In this case, the first snipe is what "activated" the second one, and the LLMC is one of its "effects".

The sniper attack is not a DR, but a dr. But 14.3 (ultimate language) does it for me: "the Sniper attack is considered resolved only after the full resolution of all further Sniper attacks generated by Random Selection (14.2), all LLMC/LLTC/Heat-of-Battle DR, etc?" So 14.1+14.3 means you have to resolve the first Sniper attack, including LLMC, because it is a Sniper attack "made prior to [the second Sniper attack]."

 

[Binchois]

The sniper attack is not a DR, but a dr. But 14.3 (ultimate language) does it for me: "the Sniper attack is considered resolved only after the full resolution of all further Sniper attacks generated by Random Selection (14.2), all LLMC/LLTC/Heat-of-Battle DR, etc?" So 14.1+14.3 means you have to resolve the first Sniper attack, including LLMC, because it is a Sniper attack "made prior to [the second Sniper attack]."

This seems a little fussy, Russ. It was the Random Selection DR that generated the second sniper attack, so I think A14.1 answers the question well enough. Both the rules (A.9) and the Index refer to RS as either a dr or a DR:

[A.9] ...We recommend using four dice of different hues to resolve Random Selection with a single DR.

[From Index] Random dr: Selects a single option/Unit; there can Be no "ties" (i.e. unlike a Random Selection DR)​

...but I doubt the writers imagined this confusion by using "DR". All A14.1 is saying is you must complete the current resolution before resolving a subsequent sniper attack.

But no matter how you interpret the wording:readit:, at least we've come to an agreement on the OP.:highfive:...Case Closed!

 

[Robin Reeve]

Just to be annoyimg, Random Selection, after A.9, is not a DR, but is a series of drs which are compared.

A.9 RANDOM SELECTION: Whenever an event occurs calling for the Random Selection of one or more units in a hex, a dr is made for each such unit therein.

That said, I would resolve the LLMC before checking if the devil's squad is hit by a 1 or 2 sniper attack.
From a practical point of view, I will roll for that possible further sniper attack asap : there is 66% chance that 3-6 will be rolled and that the present question would be avoided altogether.

 

[witchbottles]

This seems a little fussy, Russ. It was the Random Selection DR that generated the second sniper attack, so I think A14.1 answers the question well enough. Both the rules (A.9) and the Index refer to RS as either a dr or a DR:

[A.9] ...We recommend using four dice of different hues to resolve Random Selection with a single DR.

[From Index] Random dr: Selects a single option/Unit; there can Be no "ties" (i.e. unlike a Random Selection DR)​

...but I doubt the writers imagined this confusion by using "DR". All A14.1 is saying is you must complete the current resolution before resolving a subsequent sniper attack.

But no matter how you interpret the wording:readit:, at least we've come to an agreement on the OP.:highfive:...Case Closed!

just to muddy the waters - why is a random selection activating a SAN result in the first place? Is there anSSR to that effect? A 14.1 would exclude any random selection dr/ DR anyway. "...A player is subject to Sniper attack during any PFPh, MPh, DFPh or AFPh whenever he makes a TH, MC, TC, non-OBA IFT, or Entrenching, Original DR [EXC: those made for Prisoners] equal to the enemy ..."

KRL, jon H

 

[jrv]

just to muddy the waters - why is a random selection activating a SAN result in the first place? Is there anSSR to that effect? A 14.1 would exclude any random selection dr/ DR anyway. "...A player is subject to Sniper attack during any PFPh, MPh, DFPh or AFPh whenever he makes a TH, MC, TC, non-OBA IFT, or Entrenching, Original DR [EXC: those made for Prisoners] equal to the enemy ..."

With a tie on random selection for sniper victim, the Sniper player selects the unit affected, then can roll a new SAN dr on the other units that were tied [A14.2]. It is not the "value" of the Random Selection drs that triggers new SAN attacks, it is the fact that there was a tie in selecting the victim.

JR

 

[Robin Reeve]

Random Selection can involve much more dice rolled than just two (e.g. a stack with a leader and six HS would require seven drs).
So it is not a DR and never should be treated as one.

 

[Binchois]

Random Selection can involve much more dice rolled than just two (e.g. a stack with a leader and six HS would require seven drs).
So it is not a DR and never should be treated as one.

This thread's taken an amusing turn! I would again suggest that A14.1 was being slightly unspecific when it used "DR", and that the writers forgot to clarify that the rule applies the same way when addition sniper attacks are activated by RS ties.

But to keep the fun rolling, I will also repeat that the RB never defines DR as the rolling of two dice. It is defined as the rolling of multiple dice:

A.1 The term "dr" refers to die roll while the term "DR" in all CAPITAL letters refers to Dice Roll.​

Likewise, while units make individual dr for RS, one never needs to roll just one of these (there's always more than one unit to need RS at all). The RB advocates making all of these at once, and on several occasions refers to this as a Random Selection DR:

A.9 We recommend using four dice of different hues to resolve Random Selection with a single DR.

and

Random Selection among concealed units [EXC: Sniper Concealed Targets (14.23)] to select which units are revealed must include a dr for every counter beneath the top "?" counter in a stack; any Dummy unit selected is eliminated and the Random Selection process continues using the next lower dr of the same DR until a non-Dummy unit is revealed. If a SW is picked to be revealed, reveal its possessor instead. If the SW is unpossessed, use the next lower dr of the Random Selection DR.​

Also Index and A25.235 Example (twice).

But to be clear, I am not arguing against common sense that RS is actually a series individual dr. I am simply saying that the RB seems a lot less wedded to RS dr/DR specification than some other folks seem to be!

...And for THAT reason, I have no trouble interpreting 14.1 as being applicable as described above.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Ok, "DR" can be used for RS series of dr.
But identifying the RS multiple dice rolls with the usual combat DR which additions the results of two dr seems a strange path of reasoning.
Let's go for a Perry sez then.

 

[Binchois]

Ok, "DR" can be used for RS series of dr.
But identifying the RS multiple dice rolls with the usual combat DR which additions the results of two dr seems a strange path of reasoning.
Let's go for a Perry sez then.

The rule in question simply refers to "the DR that activated" the Sniper attack, so I still don't see it as much of a to include Snipers activated by a RS DR tie.

That said, I agree that this reasoning requires a little wiggling between the lines - which I probably do too much of!

Challenge accepted. Perry Sez submitted!

 

[Philippe D.]

A player is subject to Sniper attack during any PFPh, MPh, DFPh or AFPh whenever he makes a TH, MC, TC, non-OBA IFT, or Entrenching, Original DR

TH, MC, TC, non-OBA IFT, Entrenching. Anything other, does not qualify for Sniper Activation, so I don't think it matters much whether a Random Selection should count as a DR when there are exactly 2, or at least 2, possible targets.

 

[Binchois]

TH, MC, TC, non-OBA IFT, Entrenching. Anything other, does not qualify for Sniper Activation, so I don't think it matters much whether a Random Selection should count as a DR when there are exactly 2, or at least 2, possible targets.

But the problem of the OP is that a RS tie does (or at least can) result in an additional sniper attack. Most of us seem to feel that the original attack and the resultant LLMC should take place before the second sniper attack generated by the RS tie. I'm only looking for the justification.

 

[von Marwitz]

But to keep the fun rolling, I will also repeat that the RB never defines DR as the rolling of two dice.

But the rules talk often enough of a colored die and the non-colored die, which is a very strong indication that a DR is supposed to be made with two different dice, one of them colored.

Of course, you could argue, that one and the same die can be rolled twice and the first die being considered the colored die of the DR. For that POV there is even less indication, though.

von Marwitz

 

[Binchois]

Here's a quick response from Perry to answer the OP:

Regarding this sentence from A14.1:

A14.1 The Sniper attack occurs after resolving all effects of the DR that activated it, but not before resolving (14.3) all (if any) Sniper attacks made prior to it.

Example: American players activates German SAN, and the German die roll is a '1'. The selected target Location contains an 8-1 leader and a 6-6-6 squad. The RS DR results in a tie, and the German selects the 8-1 leader.

What happens next? Does the squad take his LLMC and THEN the German rolls his other sniper attack against the squad?


Yes, LLMC first.

....Perry

MMP​

------------------------
Note, Perry seems to have balked at a second part to my question (or thought it too dumb to consider!). Above is what he returned to me. Here was my original wording:

Regarding this sentence from A14.1:

A14.1 The Sniper attack occurs after resolving all effects of the DR that activated it, but not before resolving (14.3) all (if any) Sniper attacks made prior to it.

Is it correct to assume that "all effects of the DR that activated it" includes additional Sniper attacks activated by RS ties? Should the sentence be clarified/amended? Or does "DR" in this case include "RS DR"?

Example: American players activates German SAN, and the German die roll is a '1'. The selected target Location contains an 8-1 leader and a 6-6-6 squad. The RS DR results in a tie, and the German selects the 8-1 leader.

What happens next? Does the squad take his LLMC and THEN the German rolls his other sniper attack against the squad?​

 

[Robin Reeve]

His answer to your last question answers to the preceding ones.
The RS die rolls are not counted as the DR which activated the Sniper.