Snapshot through Rubble

[nekengren2]

German U31 is Assault Moving to V30.
Can the Vehicle MG fire Snapshot?

Seems NO to me.
LOS to V30 is not required for Snapshot.
V30 is the target hex for distance of 2.
However there is no LOS to the Rubble Vertex V31

8.15 SNAP SHOT: Any unit wishing to make a Small-Arms/MG Defensive
First Fire attack may claim a Snap Shot if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside
(even if that hexside is part of a Blind hex)

B.6 INHERENT TERRAIN: Certain terrain depictions (orchard, crag,
graveyard, shellholes, etc.) and counter contents of a hex (SMOKE, Bridge,
rubble, AFV, wreck) [EXC: Bypass AFV/Wreck (D9.4)] identify the entire
hex (inclusive of hexsides) as having the characteristics of that terrain type.
It is not necessary that a LOS actually cross such a symbol to be affected
mere entrance of the hex (even if only to trace a LOS to or through a vertex of
such a hex) or a LOS exactly along one of its hexsides (A6.1) suffices.

 

[johnl]

Hexsides include the vertices. From the Index:

Hexside (one of the six lines which combine to form a hex; each hexside also
contains two vertices):

So, no, since the LOS must be traced to the entire hexside.

 

[Larry]

This Q&A says that LOS exists:

A8.15
Using ABTF map for the following examples.
The firer is in V6. The target moves from T3 to U4. Snapshot at the T3/U4 hexside. Does the target receive the hedge? The
orchard? Both? Same shot, reversed, target moving from U4 to T3 – identical DRM?
A. Yes. No. No. Now orchard also counts.
Make T4 rubble. Moving from T3 to U4, is the snapshot blocked? Is it hindered? Moving from U4 to T3, is the snapshot blocked?
Is it hindered?
A. Not blocked (the LOS has entered, but not exited the Rubble hexside). No (the target is not in the rubble hex). Yes (the hexside
is crossed by the LOS). NA.
Firer in S4. Target moves from U1 to T1. Does the wall apply? Target moves from T1 to U1. Does the wall apply?
A. Yes to both.
Firer is in S3. Target moves from P4 to Q4. Does the hedge apply? Target moves from Q4 to P4. Does the hedge apply?
A. No, target is in Q4 and LOS doesn’t touch P4 before reaching the vertices. Yes, target is in P4 and LOS touches Q4 before
reaching the vertices.
Firer in T16. Target moves from V14 to U14. Does FFMO apply? Target moves from U14 to V14. Does FFMO apply?
A. No to both per A8.15 “FFMO DRM cannot apply”.
Firer is in X17. Target moves from V18 to U19. DRM? If V18 was rubble, would there be LOS and if so what would be the
DRM? Target moves from U19 to V18. DRM? If V18 was rubble, would there be LOS and if so what would be the DRM?
A. +2 (Orchard + hedge). Yes, (rubble + hedge TEM). 0. Yes, rubble TEM.

 

[Tuomo]

Graphic to aid in Larry's Q&A (red = rubble):

 

[Tuomo]

And FWIW, I don't see why the answer is what it is - that a snap shot at T3-to-U4 is not blocked while a snap shot at U4-to-T3 is blocked. The explanations in parens don't make sense to me - or at least, the second one doesn't. The first one, maybe. But if the LOS to that vertex T3-T4-U4 vertex is not blocked by the rubble in T4 when moving T3 to U4, how is the LOS to the very same vertex suddenly NOT blocked in the U4-to-T3 case???

 

[apbills]

First, the Q&A confirms that in the OP the snapshot is NA.
Per the Q&A, what hex you are going into, makes a difference. In the case of the Q&A, it states that the rubble hexside is not "exited", rather it only enters it - due to the fact the T4/U4 hexside also contains the vertex T3/T4/U4 when you are moving into U4. For the OP, this would be hexside U31/V31 and vertex V30/V31/U31 and if you where moving into U31, you could snapshot the V30/U31 hexside, but in this case the unit is moving to V30, so it would correspond to the Q&A's "Moving from U4 to T3, is the snapshot blocked?" with answer "Yes (the hexside is crossed by the LOS). " where in order to get to hex T3 the LOS has to not only enter, but also exit, the T4/U4 rubble hexside.

I don't see this interpretation of target hex / hexside either blocking/hindering or not in the 8.15 rules. The only thing it states is "however a wall/hedge/SMOKE/rubble hexside/spine of the hex being entered/exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside)." The key being it never says "target hex", but always "hexside" which would be the same for both cases as far as I can tell.

Another Q&A seems to contradict this:
Q: Firer is in X17. Target moves from V18 to U19. DRM? If V18 was rubble, would there be LOS and if so what would be the DRM? Target moves from U19 to V18. DRM? If V18 was rubble, would there be LOS and if so what would be the DRM?
UA: +2 (Orchard + hedge). Yes, (rubble + hedge TEM). 0. Yes, rubble TEM.
If we use the "target hex" concept from the first Q&A in determining if a rubble hexside blocks LOS to the snapshot, I have no idea how a snapshot at a unit moving from V18 to U19 would be considered a good LOS as it states in this Q&A.

Using the second image above, the first Q&A says a snapshot on the W19/V19 hexside is blocked from X16 for a unit moving from W19 to V19, but the second Q&A says a snapshot on the V18/U19 hexside is not blocked when fired on from X17, regardless of whether the unit is moving from U19 to V18 or from V18 to U19. These are two slightly different situations, but I still think they are not consistent in how they determine a LOS exists. (note I am assuming the situation where V18 is rubble)

 

[nekengren2]

Oh my. So THROUGH in 24.2 means LOS has to go into and through. So some of the FAQ makes sense if this is true.
24.2 Ground level rubble is a Half-Level LOS obstacle through the entire
hex (including hexsides but without negating any hedge/wall).

Moving toward the firer........ SNAPSHOT works since the Target/Range hex is not past the Rubble.
Moving away from the firer.......SNAPSHOT does NOT work since the Target/Range hex is past the Rubble.
ugh. what an obscure difference to the rules.

 

[Tuomo]

Per the Q&A, what hex you are going into, makes a difference. In the case of the Q&A, it states that the rubble hexside is not "exited", rather it only enters it - due to the fact the T4/U4 hexside also contains the vertex T3/T4/U4 when you are moving into U4.... <snip>... (wrt) the Q&A's "Moving from U4 to T3, is the snapshot blocked?" with answer "Yes (the hexside is crossed by the LOS). " where in order to get to hex T3 the LOS has to not only enter, but also exit, the T4/U4 rubble hexside.

Thanks, that logically jibes with the Q&A.

It's also so amazingly over-complicated that I'll never feel bad about people questioning anything in the rules ever again. Because when the razor's edge is this thin, I don't blame anyone for whatever half-baked violation of common sense they can twist and torture the rules into in an effort to save the miserable lives of their least Conscript HS. Because, wow. That is some strange, strange, stuff.

The T3/T4/U4 vertex can be passed through on the way to the T3/T4/U4 end of the T3/U4 hexside. Wow.

 

[nekengren2]

I'm second guessing this again after looking at Bypass Movement rules and seeing inconsistent FAQ and discussions about this.

My house ruling is SNAP SHOT is allowed if LOS exists to the hexside crossed [exactly as stated by the rules] (regardless of movement direction as debated here).
Snap Shot at a VERTEX with any Rubble does NOT block this Vertex LOS since Rubble only blocks LOS passing THROUGH the Rubble hexside.

 

[bendizoid]

What was the main question again ?

 

[fanatic+1]

Blind Hex is a special term (A6.4). Rubble does not create blind hexes.