Snap shot (vs Skulking)

Brian W

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Here's one of the Q&A that agrees:

A8.15, B9.2, C.5, & C.5C
If a unit in 11D7 moves to 11C7, and a unit in 11G9 takes a snapshot at that moving unit along the D7/C7 hexside, is the LOS
blocked by the hedge? If not, does the tem apply?
A. No. Yes. (A8.15 specifically mentions that the hedge hexside “...of a hex being entered/exited can modify a Snap Shot if
crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside”.)
VASLMap.png
 

Eagle4ty

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Hexsides are not in hex terrain.
However there is this : "Hex (the area inside the six hexsides which compose a hex, including those hexsides and their vertices):..." and "Hexside (one of the six lines which combine to form a Hex; each hexside also contains two vertices): ..." If combined with A8.15 as it states"...if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside (even if that hexside is part of a Blind hex) that was crossed by the moving unit in entering..." which intimates an action as having been completed. If the hexside noted is part of the hex it enters it is a current action so it must mean the hexside of the hex he was leaving. Unlike a unit in Bypass the unit in question is either in the building (in this instance)/rubble/woods or bypassing it (which it cannot do as depicted) and a valid LOS exist to that unit IN the building. The Snap Shot therefore occurs as the unit attempts to leave the building location (already in LOS and there is no other Location subdivision of that hex), so a LOS must exist to the verticies. thus the statement: "however a wall/hedge/SMOKE/rubble hexside/spine of a hex being entered/exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside)." If Rubble can modify but not block such a shot, surely a building couldn't be more restrictive. Counter-intuitive and I wish it were the other way, but I've had it pulled on me too many times and given the Q&A mentioned as well as the way the rule is stated, it does make rules sense.
 

Will Fleming

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I guess for a bonus question. Assume the Russian were in X2 and the German 238 made the same move from X4 to X3. Is the snap shot possible? If so, what firepower?

4 flat is a better shot than an 8 (+3 tem) in my book.
 

JAGgamer

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We should offer "Advocating ASL rules" to second year law students! If I could charge for ASL research time, I would have made [EDIT billled, definitley NOT made] about $150 for 1/2 hour of work so far! We enjoy this game why??? I do this kind of stuff for insurance law for a living and can't believeI'm so invested in these rules. Truly messed up! Let me throw gas on the fire and say - there should be no skulking. [drops mike.]
 
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Will Fleming

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My general take is that in the 6.8 example (but trying a snap shot) that LOS would be blocked by the building.

In my examples above there is "more" building so that LOS should be blocked too.
 

Will Fleming

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Here's one of the Q&A that agrees:


View attachment 4563
Using this Q&A, if the hedge does not block LOS to C7/D7, I can't see how the building in my example would block LOS.

Also, as a follow-on, assume the hedge was bocage. Does that block the LOS for purposes of a snap shot? If the hedge doesn't, I can't see bocage blocking LOS for snap shot purposes.
 

Carln0130

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Using this Q&A, if the hedge does not block LOS to C7/D7, I can't see how the building in my example would block LOS.

Also, as a follow-on, assume the hedge was bocage. Does that block the LOS for purposes of a snap shot? If the hedge doesn't, I can't see bocage blocking LOS for snap shot purposes.
B9.2 allows you specifically to fire through a wall/hedge hexside for a snap shot, coming or going from the hex. So a skulk out of a hex going away from a large firegroup, who has their LOS pass through an intervening wall or hedge hexside that the skulking unit is exiting out the other side of, could give those skulkers a very nasty surprise. That is a specifically allowed case in the rules though. Using COWTRA, they would not have even mentioned the wall/hedge exception with a rule were it not an excepyion.

I did that to Bendis once at Albany and he pretty much freaked. We had some of the finest rules lawyers this side of the Atlantic though and no one could find any fault with it. A8.15 lends some interesting insights on the original posters question also.
 

Carln0130

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I found this rather lengthy response by Perry to snap shots in Klaus's compilation. It gives me pause to think that the OP is correct to think that shot is allowed.

A8.15 Using ABTF map for the following examples. The firer is in V6. The target moves from T3 to U4. Snapshot at the T3/U4 hexside. Does the target receive the hedge? The orchard? Both? Same shot, reversed, target moving from U4 to T3 – identical DRM?
A. Yes. No. No. Now orchard also counts.

Make T4 rubble. Moving from T3 to U4, is the snapshot blocked? Is it hindered? Moving from U4 to T3, is the snapshot blocked? Is it hindered?
A. Not blocked (the LOS has entered, but not exited the Rubble hexside). No (the target is not in the rubble hex). Yes (the hexside is crossed by the LOS). NA.

Firer in S4. Target moves from U1 to T1. Does the wall apply? Target moves from T1 to U1. Does the wall apply? A. Yes to both. Firer is in S3. Target moves from P4 to Q4. Does the hedge apply? Target moves from Q4 to P4. Does the hedge apply?
A. No, target is in Q4 and LOS doesn’t touch P4 before reaching the vertices. Yes, target is in P4 and LOS touches Q4 before reaching the vertices.

Firer in T16. Target moves from V14 to U14. Does FFMO apply? Target moves from U14 to V14. Does FFMO apply?
A. No to both per A8.15 “FFMO DRM cannot apply”.

Firer is in X17. Target moves from V18 to U19. DRM? If V18 was rubble, would there be LOS and if so what would be the DRM? Target moves from U19 to V18. DRM? If V18 was rubble, would there be LOS and if so what would be the DRM?
A. +2 (Orchard + hedge). Yes, (rubble + hedge TEM). 0. Yes, rubble TEM.

Ver. 22 A8.15 A squad assault moves from bL3 to K3. Firers in M2, L1 and M1 each want to take a separate snap shot. Are any of these firers affected by hedge TEM?
A. No; A8.15.

Likewise, if the squad were in bypass at bL3-K3-K4 and M1 fired at it, would hedge TEM apply?
A. No; the LOS does not pass _through_ K3 (the hex that the hedge hexside shares with L3).

And finally, if a squad is in bypass at bI4-H3-H4, when would hedge TEM apply – would it apply when the LOS passes through H3 or H4? Or would it only apply if the LOS came along the H3-H4 hexspine? A. Only if the LOS came along the H3-H4 hexspine. A8.15 & A26.11 If a unit is affected by a Snap Shot and broken as a result, would it nevertheless gain Control of the otherwise empty location it was about to enter as it “is considered to be in the location entered thereafter” per A8.15? Is there any difference in the same situation if the Snap Shot result would have been a “KIA”?
A. Yes. No. A8.15, B9.2, C.5, & C.5C

If a unit in 11D7 moves to 11C7, and a unit in 11G9 takes a snapshot at that moving unit along the D7/C7 hexside, is the LOS blocked by the hedge? If not, does the tem apply?
A. No. Yes. (A8.15 specifically mentions that the hedge hexside “...of a hex being entered/exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside”.)

Would this be an exception to the B9.21 example? It seems to be a very similar situation (LOS to a vertex/hexside). Would that be a range 3 attack or range 4 attack?
A. The target is considered in C7 for range purposes but the attack is occurring at the hexside, unlike in B9.21 where the hypothetical is clearly in the further hex.

{1} A8.15, B9.2, C.5, & C.5C Assume that the 467 in 2Z3 enters 2AA4, and that a hypothetical DEFENDER in 2X2 that makes a Snap Shot attack at the Z3/AA4 hexside. 1) In the above situation, “the hex the target would remain in if affected by that fire” is the hex entered (AA4), so C.5C can be read: “The hex containing the target is the hex entered (AA4)”. Does C.5C therefore say that the 467 is considered in the hex entered (AA4) for Snap Shot purposes? If no, what is the meaning of C.5C?
A. Yes.

2) Range: C.5A defines the range to always be counted to the hex entered (AA4). Correct?
A. Yes.

3) Covered Arc: If a hypothetical MG with a fixed CA (A9.21) has the hex exited (Z3) inside its CA, but not the hex entered (AA4), a snap shot is not possible (according to C.5B). Correct?
A. Correct.

4) Walls/Hedges: B9.2 says that a wall/hedge blocks LOS unless the wall/hedge is part of the target hex, but A8.15 says that a wall/hedge hexside of a hex being entered/exited can modify a snap shot. This is to understand that such a wall/hedge hexside can never block the Snap Shot LOS, so for snap shot purposes the LOS is clear regardless of which hex the target 467 is in. Correct?
A. Yes, if I understand your question correctly. Basically, since the Snap Shot is made at another hexside of the same hex (Z3) with the original wall/hedge then the LOS is not blocked (though wall/hedge TEM for that original wall/hedge will apply).

5) Rubble: The same A8.15 sentence applies similarly to Rubble, so if Z3 and/or AA4 contains rubble, the Snap Shot LOS is not blocked, but is affected by Rubble TEM, and the highest if one contains Wooden Rubble and the other Stone Rubble. Correct?
A. In your EX, rubble in Z3 would affect the Snap Shot; rubble in Z4 would not since it is not “...crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside.”

6) SMOKE: 6a) The same A8.15 sentence applies similarly to SMOKE, so if Z3 or AA4 contains SMOKE, the LOF is affected by the SMOKE. Correct?
6b) If both Z3 and AA4 contains SMOKE, are both added as DRM as per A24.2?
A. Only if there is SMOKE in the hex “...crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside”; so only SMOKE in Z3 would affect the Snap Shot in your EX. SMOKE in AA4 would be ignored, per A8.15.
 

Robin Reeve

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Rather than a lengthy Q&A based on... an ABTF situation (which many of us don't own and thus cannot check on its napboard), I would really like to have a simple sentence question and answer.
Three elements are important to take into account :
1) vertices belong to a hexside
2) a Snap Shot must have LOS to the entire hexside crossed
3) The LOS to/from a vertex can be blocked by terrain of the hex(es) which share its hexside.

If Snap Shots are always allowed for leaving about any hex which is in LOS, I think that this could change the way many people play.
It also would create a conflict with Bypass LOS (e.g. a unit bypassing a hexside has the terrain of the hex blocking LOS, while a unit leaving that hex by that hexside would be in full view for a Snap Shot, as the terrain in the hex would have any effect on that LOS).
But we all know that ASL physics are not really consistent with real life physics.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Also, as a follow-on, assume the hedge was bocage. Does that block the LOS for purposes of a snap shot? If the hedge doesn't, I can't see bocage blocking LOS for snap shot purposes.
Even if the Bocage does not block LOS to the vertex, the unit moving out is not in LOS, as it would lose WA once it starts to enter the next Location.

B9.41 WA is always lost when a unit starts entering a new Location. A unit may not re-claim WA during its MPh if exit of its current Location fails (e.g., A12.15, B28.41, E1.53) unless mandatory WA (9.323) applies.

And per third bullet of B9.521:
"A viewer not in a hex formed by the bocage hexside: can see through the bocage hexside, to the hex forming that hexside, but not beyond that hex. It cannot see units without WA nor their possessed equipment, but it can see everything else in that hex."


For the record, I think the Q&A quote above with the hedge on board 11, should have gone the other way - i.e., no Snap Shot possible - as the unit is no longer in the hex with the hedge - but the the Snap Shot rules are a bit of a mess. :)
 

Mister T

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For the record, I think the Q&A quote above with the hedge on board 11, should have gone the other way - i.e., no Snap Shot possible - as the unit is no longer in the hex with the hedge - but the the Snap Shot rules are a bit of a mess. :)
That would have my preference too.

I think the Scandinavian Open had a tournament SSR going "the reasonable way".

I would wholeheartedly support nixing that Q&A, because the consequences are too far-reaching/ridiculous (pick what you prefer).
 

Vinnie

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Can we draft a question to Perry to cover this situation? I'd prefer it to refer to a word description rather than a hex on a real board as otherwise you need to get the board out to see the situation.

A unit leaves a hex that the firer has LOS to and moves directly into a hex the firer does not have LOS to. The obstacle in the hex blocks LOS to the vertices of the Hexside crossed. Is a snapshot possible in this case?
 

Brian W

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I hope Perry reverses his earlier decision and cleans the rule up. As is, -2/3 leaders make even skulking deadly.
 
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