Snap shot (vs Skulking)

Will Fleming

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In the situation below, the German 238 assault moves from X4 to X3.

1) Is a snap shot from the 458 allowed?
2) If so, what is the firepower?
3) Would this change if it were a factory?

8.15 SNAP SHOT: Any unit wishing to make a Small-Arms/MG Defensive First Fire attack may claim a Snap Shot if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside (even if that hexside is part of a Blind hex) that was crossed by the moving unit in entering a on-board hex (even if the center dot of that hex is out of the firer's LOS) [EXC: A Snap Shot cannot be taken at a unit while entering the firer's hex]. The FFNAM/FFMO DRM cannot apply (even if the entire length of the hexside is along Open Ground), nor does the TEM of most other terrain in the target hex (C.5C; however a wall/hedge/SMOKE/rubble hexside/spine of a hex being entered/ exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside). Snap Shots are resolved as Area Fire. If affected by a Snap Shot, the moving unit is considered in the Location entered thereafter. Neither a MG that must change its CA (9.21), nor an ordnance weapon, nor a weapon using IFE/Canister can make a Snap Shot (see also B9.2 and C.5). A firer can make only one Snap Shot at a unit crossing a hexside, even if that unit is expending > one MF to enter the hex, but may do so after other (even non-Snap-Shot) attacks.



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buser333

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In the situation below, the German 238 assault moves from X4 to X3.

1) Is a snap shot from the 458 allowed?
2) If so, what is the firepower?
3) Would this change if it were a factory?

8.15 SNAP SHOT: Any unit wishing to make a Small-Arms/MG Defensive First Fire attack may claim a Snap Shot if it can trace a LOS to an entire hexside (even if that hexside is part of a Blind hex) that was crossed by the moving unit in entering a on-board hex (even if the center dot of that hex is out of the firer's LOS) [EXC: A Snap Shot cannot be taken at a unit while entering the firer's hex]. The FFNAM/FFMO DRM cannot apply (even if the entire length of the hexside is along Open Ground), nor does the TEM of most other terrain in the target hex (C.5C; however a wall/hedge/SMOKE/rubble hexside/spine of a hex being entered/ exited can modify a Snap Shot if crossed by the LOF on the way to the target hexside). Snap Shots are resolved as Area Fire. If affected by a Snap Shot, the moving unit is considered in the Location entered thereafter. Neither a MG that must change its CA (9.21), nor an ordnance weapon, nor a weapon using IFE/Canister can make a Snap Shot (see also B9.2 and C.5). A firer can make only one Snap Shot at a unit crossing a hexside, even if that unit is expending > one MF to enter the hex, but may do so after other (even non-Snap-Shot) attacks.



View attachment 4554
Not allowed as there is no LOS from X5 to X3 hexside (that is the hex being entered).
I imagine if this were a factory it would be possible. I just fail to see the benefit of that.
 

Brian W

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1) Is a snap shot from the 458 allowed?
2) If so, what is the firepower?
3) Would this change if it were a factory?
1) Yes
2) Halved; range is measured from the hex entered, not left.
3) The DRM would change from +3 to +2.
 

WuWei

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X3 can be out of LOS by the rule above.
I'm confused. The hexside has to be in LOS. I would have thought that there is no LOS to that hexside, because the building is in the way. In the last example for A6.8, there is NO LOS to the hexside.
 

Brian W

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The hexside is in LOS as it is part of the hex being exited as well as part of the hex being entered. However, I understand what you are saying. It isn't a very good rule as it isn't intuitive and also goes against other parts of the ASLRB (bypass LOS at least). But that's how it stands with rules and there's also Q&A that backs it up, IIRC.
 

Robin Reeve

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So a unit can always be fired against when leaving a hex - by snap shot.
Wow.
I never have played that way and never have seen anyone play that way.
 

Vinnie

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I don't think there is Los to that hexsides. If a unit was bypassing that hexsides, it would not be in Los yo the firer.
Just because you can see a hex, does not mean you can see the hexsides.
 

JAGgamer

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1) Yes
2) Halved; range is measured from the hex entered, not left.
3) The DRM would change from +3 to +2.
If range is measured to the hex entered, then there is no range in this situation. The hex being entered is clearly out of LOS from the firer. Can't measure range to a hex out of LOS - well ore accurately, no reason to do so since you can't see/direct fire shoot at something outside LOS. I also concur with Vinnie's comment above about the fact that a unit in bypass along that "exit" hexside would be out of LOS too. No snap shot.
 

Vinnie

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If range is measured to the hex entered, then there is no range in this situation. The hex being entered is clearly out of LOS from the firer. Can't measure range to a hex out of LOS - well ore accurately, no reason to do so since you can't see/direct fire shoot at something outside LOS. I also concur with Vinnie's comment above about the fact that a unit in bypass along that "exit" hexside would be out of LOS too. No snap shot.
Not quite true. The hex entered can be out of Los (measured to the centre dot) but the snap shot can stiĺl be valid.
 

WuWei

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The hexside is in LOS as it is part of the hex being exited as well as part of the hex being entered. However, I understand what you are saying. It isn't a very good rule as it isn't intuitive and also goes against other parts of the ASLRB (bypass LOS at least). But that's how it stands with rules and there's also Q&A that backs it up, IIRC.
What you are saying is that bypass LOS is different from snapshot LOS. Where is that in the rulebook? Or can you at least cite the Q&A?
Because I won't believe it without any backup. :)
 

Binchois

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What you are saying is that bypass LOS is different from snapshot LOS. Where is that in the rulebook? Or can you at least cite the Q&A?
Because I won't believe it without any backup. :)
Bypass LOS is inherently different. It is drawn to either vertex, and a successfully open shot would be at full FP. Snapshot LOS is drawn to the entire hexside, but open LOS grants only half FP.

That said, my gut says that S&S (and his camp) is correct here. However, I can't find a Q&A to backup either position here. The rule does leave room for debate.
 

Vinnie

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Bypass LOS is inherently different. It is drawn to either vertex, and a successfully open shot would be at full FP. Snapshot LOS is drawn to the entire hexside, but open LOS grants only half FP.

That said, my gut says that S&S (and his camp) is correct here. However, I can't find a Q&A to backup either position here. The rule does leave room for debate.
Snapshot Los is more vigorous than bypass Los but if you don't have Los yo a vertex, you will have no snap shot Los. Again I refer you to the A6.8 example.it is very clear that no Los exists to an adjacent vertex .
 

WuWei

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Bypass LOS is inherently different. It is drawn to either vertex, and a successfully open shot would be at full FP. Snapshot LOS is drawn to the entire hexside, but open LOS grants only half FP.

That said, my gut says that S&S (and his camp) is correct here. However, I can't find a Q&A to backup either position here. The rule does leave room for debate.
That is even more confusing to me. The LOS requirement for bypass are less strict than for snapshots. Yet you seem to say that a shot at a unit bypassing a certain hexside wouldn't be possible because the LOS is blocked (as per the last A6.8 example), but a unit crossing that hexside would be in LOS? If neither vertex is in LOS, how can the whole hexside be in LOS? Vertices are part of the hexside.
 

Binchois

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That is even more confusing to me. The LOS requirement for bypass are less strict than for snapshots. Yet you seem to say that a shot at a unit bypassing a certain hexside wouldn't be possible because the LOS is blocked (as per the last A6.8 example), but a unit crossing that hexside would be in LOS? If neither vertex is in LOS, how can the whole hexside be in LOS? Vertices are part of the hexside.
Agreed. I am only stating the distinction. I'm actually on your side of this argument!

Really, I think the RB should say that a unit attacked by a snapshot should be considered to be in the hex it is moving into when considering LOS. I think it doesn't because range is also an issue (in the OP case, an available snapshot would be against X3, but at range 1 or 2?... Regardless, the issues in this thread should be addressed and clarified.

BTW, I agree that the A6.8 example seems convincing, but it is still only discussing LOS vs a bypassing unit. There could be an intentional difference between units bypassing (thus never in LOS) and units which can still be (briefly) fired upon before bugging out. Just some Devil's advocate here...
 
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Robin Reeve

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A6.2 last sentence also says that LOS from a vertex of a hex can be blocked by the terrain of the hex (and I would presume that, due to reciprocity, LOS to it can also be blocked) : " The terrain in a firer's hex never blocks LOS traced from its hex center dot, although it may block LOS traced from a vertex of its hex across the interior of its own hex."
 
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