Snap Shot - Novice Questions

Velocette

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More ASL Novice Questions.....

American MPh: the 666 in Q29 declares NAM to R28.

The 447 in P26 takes a Snap Shot along the Q29/R28 hexside.

Q1; Does the Hedge apply a +1 TEM to the 2 FP attack? (My though: NO)

Q2: Does the out-of-season Orchard in Q29 add a +1 Hindrance DRM to the ITF DR? (My thought: YES)

Thanks,
Velo
 

Velocette

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Would the answer to Q1 (above in previous post) be any different if a Hedge existed on the Q28/Q29 hexside (sorry for the bad artwork, but you get the gist / intent :cool:). (My Thought: YES)

Thanks,
Velo
 

Binchois

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Q1: The hedge TEM would apply to a snap shot (see B9.42 Bullet 1 and EXample)

Q2: A hex includes its vertices and hexsides. Therefore, inherent terrain (the orchard) would affect a snap shot.

Q3: No. And if your new hedge (Q28/Q29) were present without the one in R28/Q29, the hedge TEM would still apply as the 6-6-6 is moving on the opposite side from the firer (B9.42 Bullet 2 and EX).
 
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CTKnudsen

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Q1: The hedge TEM would apply to a snap shot (see B9.42 EXample)

Q2: A hex includes its vertices and hexsides. Therefore, inherent terrain (the orchard) would affect a snap shot.

Q3: No. And if your new hedge (Q28/Q29) were present without the one in R28/Q29, the hedge TEM would still apply as the 6-6-6 is moving on the opposite side from the firer.
Agree on 1 and 3, however, I am unclear on your reasoning for #2. If the moving unit were IN Q29, there would be no orchard hindrance. If it were IN R28, there would be no orchard hindrance (from P26, anyways). So it seems a little weird to me that a hindrance would apply for a snap shot between the two. I, of course, reserve the right to be completely wrong...
 

Binchois

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Agree on 1 and 3, however, I am unclear on your reasoning for #2. If the moving unit were IN Q29, there would be no orchard hindrance. If it were IN R28, there would be no orchard hindrance (from P26, anyways). So it seems a little weird to me that a hindrance would apply for a snap shot between the two. I, of course, reserve the right to be completely wrong...
I will also reserve the right to be wrong... :oops:
You may be correct as C.5C means that the target hex is the one entered (OG, no orchard). However, it still seems like the LOF is along the hexside (which is part of both hexes). If the hedge TEM applies, wouldn't the orchard?
 

Binchois

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The los goes to both vertexes for a snap shot, but the orchard hindrance does not apply to a unit leaving the orchard, only to a unit entering the orchard.
OK! Makes sense. I think you guys are convincing me. But is there a rule/Q&A that spells this out more clearly? I'm not finding it.
 

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There is a thread called “snap shot (vs. skulking)” that references a perry sez using the ABTF map involving orchard and rubble that addresses the issue.
 

Binchois

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There is a thread called “snap shot (vs. skulking)” that references a perry sez using the ABTF map involving orchard and rubble that addresses the issue.
Thanks... meanwhile, I feel really stupid because for some reason I was thinking about TEM (which, of course, an orchard doesn't provide) and not hindrances. I don't see how a hindrance in either R28 or Q29 would affect this snap shot.

However, I would return to the above-discussed problem if the orchard was instead, for example, a olive grove.
 

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Ryan Kent
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The hindrance along the hexside crossed applies to the snap shot if the target is entering the hex with the hindrance. This is a function of the los to both vertexes for a snap shot (to reach the far vertex it passes along a hindrance hex side). Because the target is assumed to be in the hex entered (even if just on the other side of the hindrance hex side) the hindrance does not apply to a target unit leaving the hindrance.
 

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I am not sure the orchard provides a Hindrance in either case, since I am not sure it is considered "between" (per A6.7) the firer and target. Might be worth a Q&A.
 

Binchois

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I still doubt the hindrance (since LOF is along the hexside, so doesn't seem to travel through such a hindrance in any case), but am mostly curious about the olive grove TEM question. I just sent the following to Perry:

Q. A snap shot is made directly along the hexside crossed by an enemy unit. It is leaving an olive grove hex and moving into an Open Ground hex. A) Could the olive grove TEM apply to the shot? B) Could a hindrance DRM apply if the grove was, instead, an orchard? C) Could either TEM or hindrance apply if the inherent terrain was in the second, not the first hex? D) ...both hexes?
 

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I still doubt the hindrance (since LOF is along the hexside, so doesn't seem to travel through such a hindrance in any case), but am mostly curious about the olive grove TEM question. I just sent the following to Perry:

Q. A snap shot is made directly along the hexside crossed by an enemy unit. It is leaving an olive grove hex and moving into an Open Ground hex. A) Could the olive grove TEM apply to the shot? B) Could a hindrance DRM apply if the grove was, instead, an orchard? C) Could either TEM or hindrance apply if the inherent terrain was in the second, not the first hex? D) ...both hexes?
Did you get an answer from Perry on ? A - ? D above? Thanks, Velo
 

Binchois

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Did Perry provide a response to ?A thru ?D above? Thanks, Velo
He didn't, but thanks for the reminder!

Your original questions have been answered (Q1&Q3 by B9.42; Q2 by the fact the hindrance wouldn't apply even if orchard existed in both hexes - Q29/R28).

As for my questions (A-D above), only A and C need answers since hindrances were never really in question. But if the Q29 orchard was, instead, an inherent terrain TEM (like an Olive Grove or Dense Jungle), then the question seems to depend on whether B.6 or C.5C takes precedence:

B.6 Inherent Terrain...It is not necessary that a LOS actually cross such a symbol to be affected — mere entrance of the hex (even if only to trace a LOS to or through a vertex of such a hex) or a LOS exactly along one of its hexsides (A6.1) suffices.​
C.5C The hex containing the target by definition must include the building/woods obstacle being bypassed, or the hex the target would remain in if affected by that fire (e.g., Snapshot [A8.15]...)​

Other rules are suggestive - including A8.15 itself - but none unambiguously answers our question, AFAICT.

Since this thread, I am of the opinion that snap shots must be measured to the hex being entered when calculating range (C.5C), so it makes sense that it should be so when considering which TEM to apply.

I just sent a rewritten Q&A, along with a related question (which I think should also be ruled upon using C.5C:

A snap shot is made directly along the hexside crossed by an enemy unit. It is leaving an olive grove hex (or other TEM-granting, inherent terrain) and moving into an Open Ground hex.
Q1) Would the olive grove TEM apply to the shot?​
Q2) Would the TEM apply if the inherent terrain was in the second, not the first hex?​
A unit is in the same hexrow as an enemy, say, 5 hexes away (so hex X2 versus an X7 enemy). A wall lies across the X2-X3 hexside.
Q3) If the X2 unit skulks into X1, can a snap shot be made against the X1-X2 hexside?​
 

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I think you didn't get an answer because there's already adequate coverage of the questions in existing Q & A.

You need the A Bridge Too Far map (there is a VASL version) to work thru the Q&As given below. The upshot as I understand it is something like this: The target unit is considered in the hex it is entering. The LOS is traced to the vertexes of the snapshot hexside but doesn't necessarily reach the vertexes for the purpose of TEM etc. when calculating the DRM for the fire. It depends on the direction of the move and the direction of the fire and whether the terrain feature is an inhex feature or a wall/hedge feature. I realize that's not terribly clear but to be clearer you need to look at the Q&A with the ABTF map.

I'll have a whack at answering your Q's based on what I've learned from the Q&A...
Q1. No. Q2. Yes. Q3. Uh.... I probably oughta look at more Q&A, but I think No because the skulker is in X1 for LOS which makes the wall a LOS obstacle to same level fire.

Q&A (there are more A8.15 Q&A than this, too, which I haven't worked thru yet, so hopefully they don't throw egg on my face):

A8.15 Using ABTF map for the following examples. The firer is in V6. The target moves from T3 to U4. Snapshot at the T3/U4 hexside. Does the target receive the hedge? The orchard? Both? Same shot, reversed, target moving from U4 to T3 – identical DRM?
A. Yes. No. No. Now orchard also counts.

Make T4 rubble. Moving from T3 to U4, is the snapshot blocked? Is it hindered? Moving from U4 to T3, is the snapshot blocked? Is it hindered?
A. Not blocked (the LOS has entered, but not exited the Rubble hexside). No (the target is not in the rubble hex). Yes (the hexside is crossed by the LOS). NA.

Firer in S4. Target moves from U1 to T1. Does the wall apply? Target moves from T1 to U1. Does the wall apply?
A. Yes to both.

Firer is in S3. Target moves from P4 to Q4. Does the hedge apply? Target moves from Q4 to P4. Does the hedge apply?
A. No, target is in Q4 and LOS doesn’t touch P4 before reaching the vertices. Yes, target is in P4 and LOS touches Q4 before reaching the vertices.

Firer in T16. Target moves from V14 to U14. Does FFMO apply? Target moves from U14 to V14. Does FFMO apply?
A. No to both per A8.15 “FFMO DRM cannot apply”.

Firer is in X17. Target moves from V18 to U19. DRM? If V18 was rubble, would there be LOS and if so what would be the DRM? Target moves from U19 to V18. DRM? If V18 was rubble, would there be LOS and if so what would be the DRM?
A. +2 (Orchard + hedge). Yes, (rubble + hedge TEM). 0. Yes, rubble TEM.
 

Binchois

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I think you didn't get an answer because there's already adequate coverage of the questions in existing Q & A.

You need the A Bridge Too Far map (there is a VASL version) to work thru the Q&As given below. The upshot as I understand it is something like this: The target unit is considered in the hex it is entering. The LOS is traced to the vertexes of the snapshot hexside but doesn't necessarily reach the vertexes for the purpose of TEM etc. when calculating the DRM for the fire. It depends on the direction of the move and the direction of the fire and whether the terrain feature is an inhex feature or a wall/hedge feature. I realize that's not terribly clear but to be clearer you need to look at the Q&A with the ABTF map.

I'll have a whack at answering your Q's based on what I've learned from the Q&A...
Q1. No. Q2. Yes. Q3. Uh.... I probably oughta look at more Q&A, but I think No because the skulker is in X1 for LOS which makes the wall a LOS obstacle to same level fire.

Q&A (there are more A8.15 Q&A than this, too, which I haven't worked thru yet, so hopefully they don't throw egg on my face):
Thanks Pyth. Who knows why Perry doesn't answer questions sometimes!? I've had him answer some which, in retrospect, were already stated clearly in the RB! In any case, my Qs are much easier to follow so should be answered for that reason alone!:sneaky:

But as I said in my last post, I agree with the conclusion that the hex being entered should determine the TEM (and LOS in the skulking/wall situation).
 

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I think you didn't get an answer because there's already adequate coverage of the questions in existing Q & A.

You need the A Bridge Too Far map (there is a VASL version) to work thru the Q&As given below. The upshot as I understand it is something like this: The target unit is considered in the hex it is entering. The LOS is traced to the vertexes of the snapshot hexside but doesn't necessarily reach the vertexes for the purpose of TEM etc. when calculating the DRM for the fire. It depends on the direction of the move and the direction of the fire and whether the terrain feature is an inhex feature or a wall/hedge feature. I realize that's not terribly clear but to be clearer you need to look at the Q&A with the ABTF map.

I'll have a whack at answering your Q's based on what I've learned from the Q&A...
Q1. No. Q2. Yes. Q3. Uh.... I probably oughta look at more Q&A, but I think No because the skulker is in X1 for LOS which makes the wall a LOS obstacle to same level fire.

Q&A (there are more A8.15 Q&A than this, too, which I haven't worked thru yet, so hopefully they don't throw egg on my face):
Can anyone with more skill than I post a graphic that hows the ABTF map area in question along with the Q&A?
 
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