Smoke Hindrance(?)/TEM(?)

volgaG68

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This is about the only time that I have trouble with the variance of Smoke between being a Hindrance or a TEM. In the picture, it is time for Concealment Gain at the end of the Russian Turn. Can the 6-2-8 gain '?' in the woods or can the German infantry see him? [It all depends on whether or not the final Smoke counter in the 6-2-8's hex is considered a Hindrance or TEM.] It is Dispersed Smoke in the 6-2-8's hex, and Grain is in season.
 

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clubby

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There's +6 hindrance right?
 

volgaG68

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There's +6 hindrance right?
From the German's viewpoint...+1 Grain, +1 Grain/+2 Dispersed Smoke, +??? (is the dispersed smoke in the russian hex a TEM or a Hindrance?)
 

Philippe D.

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24.2 EFFECT: All Direct Fire and on-board mortar fire traced into, through, within, or out of (see 24.8) a SMOKE Location is affected by a Hindrance DRM of +1, +2, or +3 depending upon the type of SMOKE, in addition to any normal TEM/LOS Hindrance effects of that hex.
Seems pretty clear as worded, no? It's a Hindrance, even when LOS is not traced through it but from or into it.
 

volgaG68

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Found this old Perry reply to Klas, and Perry's answer clears it up for me.

"Answer from MMP/Perry:

> Does SMOKE Hindrance DRM (or if SMOKE has a TEM, its TEM DRM) apply to an Fire
> Lane attack (other that negating FFMO) ?

No; A9.22.


> (Some rule seems to indicate that SMOKE has a TEM but under the SMOKE rules it
> only mentions SMOKE's effects as a Hindrance DRM and the Fire Lane rules
> specifically mentions that SMOKE's Hindrance DRM doesn't apply to a FL attack
> [EXC: negating FFMO].

[[[Despite having some TEM-like properties, it is a Hindrance, not a TEM.]]]

....Perry

MMP"
 

clubby

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Maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand how Smoke is a TEM. What am I missing?
 

Philippe D.

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Isn't Smoke the only kind of Hindrance that has an effect when originating in the target's hex? This is why it's TEM-like.
 

Sparafucil3

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ASLRB said:
B.9 ARTIFICIAL TERRAIN: Any counter other than an entrenchment, pillbox, and/or shellhole placed in a hex which affects the TEM of that hex is Artificial Terrain. Any AFV, wreck, SMOKE (or roadblock along the LOS) can increase the TEM of a hex. The TEM of entrenchment, pillbox, or shellhole counters are dependent of MF expended upon entry and therefore are not considered Artificial Terrain.
SMOKE adds +3 TEM to a hex. Shooting out adds +4 Hindrance. The Q&A clears that up. In theory. -- jim
 

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So to clarify, the total hindrance between L7 and I6 in the above example is +6 (+1 grain K6, +3 grain/SMOKE J6, +2 SMOKE I6), and thus LOS is blocked, yes?
 

clubby

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Yeah, I know the rules, that's why I mentioned it. :D
 

clubby

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So to clarify, the total hindrance between L7 and I6 in the above example is +6 (+1 grain K6, +3 grain/SMOKE J6, +2 SMOKE I6), and thus LOS is blocked, yes?
I think that's where we've all arrived.
 

CTKnudsen

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Reading A6.7, it specifically mentions that SMOKE and FFE are the only two hindrances that may exist in the target and firer hexes as well as in intervening hexes.
 

jrv

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Reading A6.7, it specifically mentions that SMOKE and FFE are the only two hindrances that may exist in the target and firer hexes as well as in intervening hexes.
Which isn't really true; there are others. The Night LV Hindrance comes to mind, as does heavy rain.

JR
 

CTKnudsen

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Which isn't really true; there are others. The Night LV Hindrance comes to mind, as does heavy rain.

JR
Right, but those (barring the silhouetting rules around Night LV) tend to be non-hex specific, correct? I.e. mist/rain/snow does have an effect in the target hex, but this is part of an effect based around range to target as opposed to something happening specifically in the target hex. Fog is different in that it essentially places a SMOKE counter of strength x and height y in every applicable hex.

Not trying to lecture or disagree here, just trying to make sure I grok the rules right!
 
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