SMOKE and snipers

esprcorn

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Ok, caveat, I'm following up a facebook query that I'm not convinced of the consensus so I'm asking again here where I can elaborate my reasoning.

14.21 ALTERNATE TARGET: If the present target hex contains neither an eligible target (14.22) nor the enemy Sniper counter, the attacking Sniper counter is moved to, and will attack, the hex closest (in hexes) to that target hex which does contain one/both of them. Should ≥ two such hexes be equidistant, the Location with the lowest TEM is the target. Only the lowest (to a minimum of zero) in-hex TEM/SMOKE DRM applicable to any eligible target currently occupying that hex, regardless of LOS, is considered in the comparison [EXC: the +1 HA TEM, and the +1 Factory (but not that building) TEM, are NA]. Hidden Fortifications (e.g., entrenchments, Fortified Building Locations) may be revealed at this time. If the target hex is still undetermined, the Sniper player chooses which of those equidistant hexes to attack.

1) Sentence two establishes that between two equidistant hexes, choose the one with lowest TEM. This we all get...

2) Sentence 3 is where my debate begins. This states that when evaluating the in-hex TEM of each equidistant hex, use the lowest in-hex TEM or SMOKE DRM in each hex. So what does this mean? How many hexes have more than one in hex TEM? Basically only those with a printed terrain type AND smoke or WP. So this is stating that when considering a hex that has been SMOKED, use the lower of the two TEM's... Usually, this would NOT be the SMOKE.

Ok, what most people seem to think is that Sentence 3 is just reinforcing sentence 2 and saying the smoke counts. I disagree. If that were the case, sentence two would just say including smoke. I am a little uncertain about what (to a minimum of zero) might be referring to - how would you get less than zero?

As an example we have two equidistant hexes, both woods, one which has been SMOKED. If only sentence two I would say the woods only hex is the target. However sentence three says to use the lowest in-hex TEM for each - meaning count both as a woods hex - making them equivalent and giving the player the option to choose between the hexes.
 

Binchois

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I see your point, and think this is worth a question to Perry. I will attempt to clarify your questions with my own reading:
Should ≥ two such hexes be equidistant, the Location with the lowest TEM is the target.

This part is clear: if enemy units in two equidistant hexes are possible targets, the one with the lowest TEM (only - not SMOKE DRM) is chosen.

Only the lowest (to a minimum of zero) in-hex TEM/SMOKE DRM applicable to any eligible target currently occupying that hex, regardless of LOS, is considered in the comparison...

This part is more complicated, but is referring to situations when one of the equidistant hexes contains units in multiple Locations. For example: assume two equidistant hexes. One includes a squad in woods, the second includes one squad in a Bunker (or a Foxhole, though not a seperate Location) and another in OG. The latter hex is chosen since the unit in OG has zero TEM (note that a squad in the Foxhole would remain an eligible target - see Q&A). As for any possible Smoke DRM, I would add this with TEM when calculating between Locations (If there were two units in a building, one on ground where there was two-level Smoke, and one in a third-level Steeple). But I think you are correct in that SMOKE would not be included when calculating the best of two hexes (second sentence). It is only used to determine which Location within a hex is compared to the other hex (third sentence). Annotate it this way:

Only the lowest (to a minimum of zero) in-hex TEM/SMOKE DRM applicable to any eligible target currently occupying that hex [i.e., the hex containing units in multiple Locations], regardless of LOS, is considered in the comparison [between the equidistant hexes]...​

If this has ever come up in a scenario of mine, I likely played it that SMOKE DRM applies when comparing the equidistant hexes. I suspect others would too. I couldn't say for sure what the RB intention is. But I think your reading seems more literally in-line with what is written. "THAT HEX" seems specifically to refer only to the one with multiple target Locations. Considering that the RB fix would be simply to add the "/SMOKE DRM" to the second sentence, I won't be surprised if Perry agrees with you.

As for the "to a minimum of zero" part of 14.21, third sentence. I can only think that is acts as a warning not to include either FFMO, FFNAM, or Hazardous Movement DRM, even though these are not TEM. The sentence does, however, allow the Sniper to ignore walls/hedges or bridge TEM as these, depending upon the LOF, can be avoided)...
 
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esprcorn

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I see your point, and think this is worth a question to Perry. I will attempt to clarify your questions with my own reading:
Should ≥ two such hexes be equidistant, the Location with the lowest TEM is the target.

This part is clear: if enemy units in two equidistant hexes are possible targets, the one with the lowest TEM (only - not SMOKE DRM) is chosen.

Only the lowest (to a minimum of zero) in-hex TEM/SMOKE DRM applicable to any eligible target currently occupying that hex, regardless of LOS, is considered in the comparison...

This part is more complicated, but is referring to situations when one of the equidistant hexes contains units in multiple Locations. For example: assume two equidistant hexes. One includes a squad in woods, the second includes one squad in a Bunker (or a Foxhole, though not a seperate Location) and another in OG. The latter hex is chosen since the unit in OG has zero TEM (note that the more-protected squad would remain an eligible target - see Q&A). As for any possible Smoke DRM, I would add this with TEM when calculating between Locations (If there were two units in a building, one on ground where there was two-level Smoke, and one in a third-level Steeple). But I think you are correct in that SMOKE would not be included when calculating the best of two hexes (second sentence). It is only used to determine which Location within a hex is compared to the other hex (third sentence). Annotate it this way:

Only the lowest (to a minimum of zero) in-hex TEM/SMOKE DRM applicable to any eligible target currently occupying that hex [i.e., the hex containing units in multiple Locations], regardless of LOS, is considered in the comparison [between the equidistant hexes]...​

If this has ever come up in a scenario of mine, I likely played it that SMOKE DRM applies when comparing the equidistant hexes. I suspect others would too. I couldn't say for sure what the RB intention is. But I think your reading seems more literally in-line with what is written. "THAT HEX" seems specifically to refer only to the one with multiple target Locations. Considering that the RB fix would be simply to add the "/SMOKE DRM" to the second sentence, I won't be surprised if Perry agrees with you.

As for the "to a minimum of zero" part of 14.21, third sentence. I can only think that is acts as a warning not to include either FFMO, FFNAM, or Hazardous Movement DRM, even though these are not TEM. The sentence does, however, allow the Sniper to ignore walls/hedges or bridge TEM as these, depending upon the LOF, can be avoided)...
Thanks for the very well reasoned response. I do agree the intent is probably as most would argue - but it's poorly written and can be taken literally for my interpretation.

Still, if you take my interpretation, when would smoke really every apply? The only case I can think of would be in two fortified stone building locations - the one smoked would be hit by the sniper.... That doesn't seem logical.

So I've written to Perry with the hopes to get the rule clarified via Perry Sez or eventual errata, but I'm willing to concede now that someone has confirmed that I'm not an idiot and my viewpoint was valid.... ;)
 

klasmalmstrom

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You use the lowest TEM/SMOKE-DRM applicable to any target unit. The lowest such in the woods hex is +1, and the lowest such in the woods+SMOKE hex is +4.

Regarding different TEM in a hex, a foxhole could, e.g., convey a different TEM than outside of the foxhole.
 

esprcorn

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Wrote this to Perry....

Question: Two equidistant hexes are being evaluated for a sniper hit. Both are woods hexes, but one has been SMOKED (+3). Are they considered equivalent for lowest TEM purposes?

The second bolded line below seems to clearly indicated that only the lowest in-hex TEM/SMOKE DRM is considered when comparing the hexes. In the smoked hex, the lowest in hex TEM is just woods +1. I seem to be in the minority opinion...

14.21 ALTERNATE TARGET: If the present target hex contains neither an eligible target ( 14.22 ) nor the enemy Sniper counter, the attacking Sniper counter is moved to, and will attack, the hex closest (in hexes) to that target hex which does contain one/both of them. Should ≥ two such hexes be equidistant, the Location with the lowest TEM is the target. Only the lowest (to a minimum of zero) in-hex TEM/SMOKE DRM applicable to any eligible target currently occupying that hex, regardless of LOS, is considered in the comparison [EXC: the +1 HA TEM, and the +1 Factory (but not that building) TEM, are NA]. Hidden Fortifications (e.g., entrenchments, Fortified Building Locations) may be revealed at this time. If the target hex is still undetermined, the Sniper player chooses which of those equidistant hexes to attack.​

And received this... Case closed and I concede (though taken literally, you're all bloody wrong.. ) ;)

No

...Perry

MMP
 

GeorgeBates

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You use the lowest TEM/SMOKE-DRM applicable to any target unit.
I believe I have failed to pay attention to the presence of SMOKE in determining the correct target.

14.21 ALTERNATE TARGET: If the present target hex contains neither an eligible target (14.22) nor the enemy Sniper counter, the attacking Sniper counter is moved to, and will attack, the hex closest (in hexes) to that target hex which does contain one/both of them. Should ≥ two such hexes be equidistant, the Location with the lowest TEM is the target. Only the lowest (to a minimum of zero) in-hex TEM/SMOKE DRM applicable to any eligible target currently occupying that hex, regardless of LOS, is considered in the comparison [EXC: the +1 HA TEM, and the +1 Factory (but not that building) TEM, are NA]. Hidden Fortifications (e.g., entrenchments, Fortified Building Locations) may be revealed at this time. If the target hex is still undetermined, the Sniper player chooses which of those equidistant hexes to attack.
 
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