SMOKE and FFMO for Offboard Artillery FFE

grabowbe

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
49
Reaction score
22
Country
llUnited States
Hello:

Does SMOKE cancel FFMO for FFE resolution? Here are some relevant rules:

C1.51 ENTERING A FFE:
FFMO/FFNAM can apply during the MPh (only);

C1.52 TEM:
Hindrances/SMOKE never affect FFE IFT resolution.

A24.2 EFFECT: SMOKE has no effect on minefield, OBA, and DC attacks other than the added MF cost to place the DC (or the added difficulty of placing or correcting OBA; C1.62). FFMO does not apply to any target shrouded by SMOKE, although FFNAM does.

INDEX: Open Ground [for FFMO: any hex in which no positive TEM or LOS Hindrance applies: A4.6]

INDEX: FFMO (First Fire Movement in Open Ground; a -1 DRM vs moving Infantry in Open Ground, but it does not apply if it is combined with another effective protective TEM or LOS Hindrance): [FFE: C1.51]

Thanks.
 

Jazz

Inactive
Joined
Feb 3, 2003
Messages
12,188
Reaction score
2,739
Location
The Empty Quarter
Country
llLithuania
If you're silly enough to run into a falling OBA concentration then you should be penalized to the full extent of the rulz....just my very unofficial and unresearched opinion....
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,383
Reaction score
1,735
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
Other terrain types provide no protective cover for ballistics falling from the sky - grain, brush, etc. The rules negate FFMO for hindrance. You have hindrance in the location via smoke. FFMO does not apply. Jazz's reality argument is probably right in truth and the unit should die for wandering into an OBA FFE. But the -1 for FFMO is NA.
 

Old Noob

Forum Guru
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
2,177
Reaction score
2,330
Country
llUnited States
On the other hand, there are tales of MMCs running through FFE hexes and surviving to win scenarios.
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,383
Reaction score
1,735
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
It is also possible to roll snakes three times in a row, not likely but possible.
 

grabowbe

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
49
Reaction score
22
Country
llUnited States
For HS29: Obstinate Canadians it is almost a requirement to run through an FFE to win.

Larry - are you also saying that for Brush and Grain (which are not open ground) the -1 FFMO would apply for FFE?

B12 Brush
12.3 Brush has no TEM, but because it is not Open Ground it negates Interdiction and FFMO.

B15 Grain
15.3 Grain has no TEM, but because it is not Open Ground it negates Interdiction/ FFMO for fire traced into or through it.

B14 Orchard
14.3 An orchard has no TEM for fire traced into it, but because it is not Open
Ground it negates Interdiction/FFMO regardless of season.

Thanks
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,913
Reaction score
5,094
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
For HS29: Obstinate Canadians it is almost a requirement to run through an FFE to win.

Larry - are you also saying that for Brush and Grain (which are not open ground) the -1 FFMO would apply for FFE?

B12 Brush
12.3 Brush has no TEM, but because it is not Open Ground it negates Interdiction and FFMO.

B15 Grain
15.3 Grain has no TEM, but because it is not Open Ground it negates Interdiction/ FFMO for fire traced into or through it.

B14 Orchard
14.3 An orchard has no TEM for fire traced into it, but because it is not Open
Ground it negates Interdiction/FFMO regardless of season.

Thanks
I believe Larry was saying just the opposite. If FFMO doesn't apply (e.g. Brush, in season Grain, Orchard, etc.) it simply doesn't apply in any circumstances where fire of any sorts is concerned. Take the instance of Indirect Fire on woods. A -1 Air Bursts DRM applies but simply because the normal +1 TEM for woods (or +2 for Dense Jungle) doesn't apply, FFMO does not apply additionally.
 

grabowbe

Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
49
Reaction score
22
Country
llUnited States
Ah - got it. Misinterpreted the statement that they provided no protective cover.

So, all are in agreement?

SMOKE in a hex cancels FFMO for units being attacked by FFE.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,913
Reaction score
5,094
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Ah - got it. Misinterpreted the statement that they provided no protective cover.

So, all are in agreement?

SMOKE in a hex cancels FFMO for units being attacked by FFE.
Yup. A24.2 Last sentence, "FFMO does not apply to any target shrouded by SMOKE, although FFNAM does."
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,383
Reaction score
1,735
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
For HS29: Obstinate Canadians it is almost a requirement to run through an FFE to win.

Larry - are you also saying that for Brush and Grain (which are not open ground) the -1 FFMO would apply for FFE?
No. The brush and grain, like smoke, mean that the terrain is not OG. I was contrasting equally dangerous environments where FFE does not care about aiming, just raining shells, and FFMO is NA.
 

jyoung

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Messages
371
Reaction score
442
Country
llAustralia
Yup. A24.2 Last sentence, "FFMO does not apply to any target shrouded by SMOKE, although FFNAM does."
I'm still trying to understand this.
As the OP stated, C1.52 - "Hindrances/SMOKE never affect FFE IFT resolution."
Wouldn't this override A24.2?
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,383
Reaction score
1,735
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
C1.51 -- FFMO/FFNAM can apply during the MPh (only)

The question is whether the terrain is OG. A10.531 EX says that the presence of SMOKE in the hex means that it is not OG.
 

jyoung

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Messages
371
Reaction score
442
Country
llAustralia
C1.51 -- FFMO/FFNAM can apply during the MPh (only)
The question is whether the terrain is OG. A10.531 EX says that the presence of SMOKE in the hex means that it is not OG.
Wouldn't SMOKE making the hex not OG be "affecting the IFT resolution"?, Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to grok the rules. :unsure:
 

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
Wouldn't SMOKE making the hex not OG be "affecting the IFT resolution"?, Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to grok the rules. :unsure:
I don't think that you are being disputaious or a bolshie in the slightest. The rule seems rather abstruse. 😉😉
 
Last edited:

Actionjick

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 23, 2020
Messages
7,466
Reaction score
4,992
Location
Kent, Ohio
First name
Darryl
Country
llUnited States
If you're silly enough to run into a falling OBA concentration then you should be penalized to the full extent of the rulz....just my very unofficial and unresearched opinion....
I'm with you on this. Unless the rationale is that the SMOKE causes the Observer to be less accurate in his calling in of the FFE it makes no sense. I am not an absolute realist when it comes to the game but in this case it's hard not to look at this through the lens of a realist.
 
Top