SMOKE and "diagonal" LOS

[jrv]

> In the A24.4 EX unit A in I4 at level two has a +3 hindrance firing down
> at unit D at level zero in H3 because, although it is not itself in
> Smoke, its LOS passes through I3-level one. If unit A were instead in I4
> at level one, it would seem that the LOS leaves I4 level one then goes
> through I4 level zero before entering hex H3. This would suggest that
> the hindrance from I4 level one to G3 level zero is +7. Is the hindrance
> +7? Or is it +4?
>
> Next assume that +3 Smoke is in hex H3 and not in hex I4. Is the
> hindrance from I4 level two to G3 level zero +6 (+3 for G3 level one, +3
> for G3 level zero)? Or is the hindrance from I4 level two to G3 level
> zero +3?
>
> Similarly, is the hindrance from I4 level one to G3 level zero +6 (+3
> for G3 level one, +3 for G3 level zero)? Or is the hindrance from I4
> level one to G3 level zero +3?



None of this "extra" DRM apply.

....Perry
MMP

 

[jrv]

When LOS goes "diagonally" through a hex it may go through more than one Location in that hex. Since the SMOKE DRM is per Location, it might be the case that a LOS that goes "diagonally" through a hex would go through two Locations in that hex and might be subject to two SMOKE DRM in a single hex. This is bad for a couple of reasons. First, we have no mechanism for calculating which levels a LOS goes through when it is "diagonal". Second even if we did, if in one circumstance a LOS goes through a hex only hitting one level while in another case the nearly identical LOS (say shifted up a half-level because both viewer and target were on rooftops) hit two levels the hindrance would be very different, and for no good reason.

Perry does not explicitly state it but my interpretation based on his answer is that if LOS goes diagonally through, from or into a SMOKE hex it is considered to pass through only one SMOKE Location even though geometrically it may seem to pass through more than one. I did not ask about it, but I assume that LOS that is vertical (e.g. 21I4 level one to 21I4 level zero) would still be considered going through two SMOKE Locations.

JR

 

[von Marwitz]

Perry does not explicitly state it but my interpretation based on his answer is that if LOS goes diagonally through, from or into a SMOKE hex it is considered to pass through only one SMOKE Location even though geometrically it may seem to pass through more than one. I did not ask about it, but I assume that LOS that is vertical (e.g. 21I4 level one to 21I4 level zero) would still be considered going through two SMOKE Locations.

JR

An interesting outcome.

Still, the answer to a 'vertical' LOS would be interesting, too. Such situations do not happen that rarely (i.e. a Level 1 building with +3 SMOKE placed at ground level and opposing units in round level and Level 1).

It would make a big difference on gameplay if the Hindrances would be +4 as opposed to +7.

von Marwitz

 

[Robin Reeve]

I would venture that the system doesn't allow intermediate Locations between adjacent hexes, while it does consider that, vertically, there are two Locations.
In both cases, there are two Locations: the firer's and the target's.

 

[von Marwitz]

That seems probable. I would place my bet on your view.

von Marwitz

 

[Robin Reeve]

I would place my bet on your view.

Even if LOS is blocked?

 

[von Marwitz]

Even if LOS is blocked?

I might not see, but in my mind, there are no questions - only answers.
Come, my friend, and have your palm read.

























von Marwitz

 

[ColinJ]

NRBH, but isn't the maximum DRM for SMOKE +3 (excluding the +1 DRM for fire originating within SMOKE), regardless of how many smoke counters end up in the hex? I would assume this would apply vertically as well.

Colin

 

[klasmalmstrom]

NRBH, but isn't the maximum DRM for SMOKE +3 (excluding the +1 DRM for fire originating within SMOKE), regardless of how many smoke counters end up in the hex? I would assume this would apply vertically as well.

It is per Location, not per hex.

 

[jrv]

It is per Location, not per hex.

The original rules said "hex" in A24.2, but that was changed as part of the great hex-should-mean-location re-write, I believe. For most cases this didn't really matter but someone posted here saying that LOS from level one of a hex with SMOKE to a level zero target goes through level zero on its way out of the hex, in the same way that the A24.2 EX shows LOS going through level one from level two. That would suggest the total hindrance was +7 because the Hindrance is per location. As I said in my discussion above, we have no rules that define what levels a LOS goes through if it is going diagonally across a hex. You might perhaps make some guesses based on blind hexes, but there are no blind hexes from an obstacle in your own hex.

BTW, if anyone can find that thread I will post a link to the Q&A. I have a vague memory that it arose in an AAR rather than in a rules question, but I am not sure. It would have been around March 2016.

JR

 

[Eagle4ty]

The original rules said "hex" in A24.2, but that was changed as part of the great hex-should-mean-location re-write, I believe. For most cases this didn't really matter but someone posted here saying that LOS from level one of a hex with SMOKE to a level zero target goes through level zero on its way out of the hex, in the same way that the A24.2 EX shows LOS going through level one from level two. That would suggest the total hindrance was +7 because the Hindrance is per location. As I said in my discussion above, we have no rules that define what levels a LOS goes through if it is going diagonally across a hex. You might perhaps make some guesses based on blind hexes, but there are no blind hexes from an obstacle in your own hex.

BTW, if anyone can find that thread I will post a link to the Q&A. I have a vague memory that it arose in an AAR rather than in a rules question, but I am not sure. It would have been around March 2016.

JR

One of the original threads about this phenomenon was "Some ordinance SMOKE questions...". However, it seems as if Perry is saying the example given in the ASLRB has no merit as the unit isn't firing through any smoke locations after all as this would be an "extra" DRM. How he arrived at this conclusion is unknown nor understandable given the rule. (Sorry, I'm a Luddite when it comes to establishing links within the forum).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The original rules said "hex" in A24.2, but that was changed as part of the great hex-should-mean-location re-write, I believe.

That is my recollection as well.

For most cases this didn't really matter but someone posted here saying that LOS from level one of a hex with SMOKE to a level zero target goes through level zero on its way out of the hex, in the same way that the A24.2 EX shows LOS going through level one from level two. That would suggest the total hindrance was +7 because the Hindrance is per location. As I said in my discussion above, we have no rules that define what levels a LOS goes through if it is going diagonally across a hex.

I agree - there are no such rules. The only thing hinting is the case with a unit on Level 2 firing down - at any range - it will pick up the +1/+2/+3 for SMOKE rising up the Level 2 in its hex. But I guess this could be seen as a special case.

In that same example the unit at Level 0 firing up to Level 2 does not pick up any Hindrance from the Smoke at Level 1 in its hex, e.g.

You might perhaps make some guesses based on blind hexes, but there are no blind hexes from an obstacle in your own hex.

Agree.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I would then assume given Perry's answer that a unit on an upper level firing directly down to a lower level through a stairwell (inherent or not) would also not be penalized by the smoke existing in the lower level as this would be the only consistent and logical conclusion.

 

[jrv]

I would then assume given Perry's answer that a unit on an upper level firing directly down to a lower level through a stairwell (inherent or not) would also not be penalized by the skoke existing in the lower level as this would be the only consistent and logical conclusion.

You are asking about firing vertically in-hex from, say, level one to level zero with level two Smoke in the hex? I would assume the opposite, that the SMOKE in each Location applies. But I did not pose a question about same-hex fire, so I might not be correct.

JR

 

[Perry]

You are asking about firing vertically in-hex from, say, level one to level zero with level two Smoke in the hex? I would assume the opposite, that the SMOKE in each Location applies. But I did not pose a question about same-hex fire, so I might not be correct.

JR

You would be correct, JR.

 

[jrv]

This is the thread that prompted my question: http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/some-ordinance-smoke-questions.129823/.

JR