sM

Juan SantaX

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I don´t understand the sM rule...

An AFV that has moved to a new hex but has spent a MF to stop, is a moving/stopped AFV, right?

Why does it get the +2 DRM using the sM? (C.8, D2.13 and D13.32)

"...A moving/Non-Stopped (C.8) AFV must add a +2 DRM to its sM Usage DR. ..."
 

klasmalmstrom

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That's just what the rule says....why it says that is more of a design question.
 

EagleIV

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While the AFV has stopped, it still takes a little time to aim the smoke in the desired direction.
 

Juan SantaX

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That's just what the rule says....why it says that is more of a design question.
I dont understand...

it can be a moving/non stopped AFV (an AFV that started, moved, and its in motion) +2

or can be a moving/stopped AFV (an AFV that started, moved and then spent one mf to stop) +2????
 

Mister T

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It would be way too omniscient for the phasing player if he were to place SMOKE so easily after moving from A to B. Hence the +2
 

Juan SantaX

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It would be way too omniscient for the phasing player if he were to place SMOKE so easily after moving from A to B. Hence the +2
i think my problem is with the english again... I dont understand why a moving/stopped AFV gets the DRM of a moving/non stopped AFV.
 

Paul John

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It is the same as bounding or advance fire phase firing of the MA, in both of those you get the +2 when you have stopped. sM is the same principle.
i.e. you have moved that turn.
 

Juan SantaX

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It is the same as bounding or advance fire phase firing of the MA, in both of those you get the +2 when you have stopped. sM is the same principle.
i.e. you have moved that turn.
But then that drm is aplicable to all moving vehicles... whats the meaning after the slash? .../non-stopped?

It can be a moving and stopped afv OR a moving and non stopped afv.... I really dont understand. Thats too much for me... it surpasses my understanding... My brain is going to blast
 

Sparafucil3

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But then that drm is aplicable to all moving vehicles... whats the meaning after the slash? .../non-stopped?

It can be a moving and stopped afv OR a moving and non stopped afv.... I really dont understand. Thats too much for me... it surpasses my understanding... My brain is going to blast
So C.8 is the definition of a Moving Target. Imagine the starts its MPh Stopped. You can fire the sM and the AFV would not be "moving" per C.8., It is also Stopped (i.e. the AFV is not Non-Stopped) so no +2. The AFV pays one to Start. Now it is non-Stopped. It enters another hex and stops. Now it is Stopped but Moving per C.8 so the +2 would apply.

It seems like I type this once a year:
Stopped: A vehicle which has spent a Stop MP is stopped.
Non-Stopped: A vehicle which has not spent a Stop MP since it's last Start MP expenditure. By definition, a Motion vehicle is Non-Stopped.
Moving: A Unit which is conducting ITS MPh. Only one unit/stack is ever moving at one time.
Moving Target: A vehicle which is either in Motion, or one which has entered a new Hex or by-passed a new-hexside in its MPh.

Case L/J:
If either unit is Non-Stopped, Case L will not apply.
Assume range to target is <=2. Assume the shooter is Stopped.
-- If the target started its MPh in Motion, Case J applies through Final Fire.

For the rest, assume the Moving vehicle did not begin the MPh in Motion.
-- If the target is Non-Stopped and has entered a new hex this Mph, Case J applies, Case L is NA.
-- If the target is Non-Stopped and has not entered a new hex this MP, neither Case L or Case J apply.
-- If the target is Stopped and has entered a new hex this turn, Case L and Case J apply.
-- If the target is Stopped and has not entered a new hex this turn, Case L applies, Case J is NA.

I can't stress this enough, if you want to be better at AFV play, knowing C.8 inside and out is one of the best investments of your time. Stopped/Non-Stopped, Moving Target, and Moving are well worth your time to get to know. -- jim
 
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Juan SantaX

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So C.8 is the definition of a Moving Target. Say you start your MPh Stopped. You can fire the sM and you are not "moving" per C.8 and you are Stopped (i.e. the AFV is not Non-Stopped) so no +2. The AFV pays one to Start. Now it is non-Stopped. It enters another hex and stops. Now it is Stopped but Moving per C.8 so the +2 would apply. -- jim
So that DRM is aplicable to ALL moving afv, being Stopped or not ... then the slash don't make sense to me. I’m sure its a problem with my understanding of English (And of the rules of course).

Maybe if I understand the slash as “and/or” (but I cannot see how an AFV could be non stopped while not moving... thats the “or”) but to me, at least in my language, a slash is “and”... It must be both...

I appreciate your answers, but I think I‘m showing myself as a real dumb....
 

klasmalmstrom

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I believe "moving" in D13.32 means "moving target" - not just "moving" as in "executing its MPh".

So a vehicle that starts its MPh stopped is not a "moving target" - so if it tries the sM the +2 does not apply. If it spends 1 MP to Start, it's still not a "moving target" but now non-stopped, so the +2 does apply.
 

Sparafucil3

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So that DRM is aplicable to ALL moving afv, being Stopped or not ... then the slash don't make sense to me. I’m sure its a problem with my understanding of English (And of the rules of course).

Maybe if I understand the slash as “and/or” (but I cannot see how an AFV could be non stopped while not moving... thats the “or”) but to me, at least in my language, a slash is “and”... It must be both...

I appreciate your answers, but I think I‘m showing myself as a real dumb....
You have the English word correct. The game defines Moving differently. -- jim
 

Sparafucil3

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I believe "moving" in D13.32 means "moving target" - not just "moving" as in "executing its MPh".
I agree. The reference to C.8 makes that clear (thankfully). It should probably be fixed. -- jim
 

Actionjick

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So that DRM is aplicable to ALL moving afv, being Stopped or not ... then the slash don't make sense to me. I’m sure its a problem with my understanding of English (And of the rules of course).

Maybe if I understand the slash as “and/or” (but I cannot see how an AFV could be non stopped while not moving... thats the “or”) but to me, at least in my language, a slash is “and”... It must be both...

I appreciate your answers, but I think I‘m showing myself as a real dumb....
Dude any non-English as a first language speaker who can play ASL, even a really flawed game, would never be considered dumb as far as I'm concerned. I'd venture to say that goes for most members of this forum.
 

Eagle4ty

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But then that drm is aplicable to all moving vehicles... whats the meaning after the slash? .../non-stopped?

It can be a moving and stopped afv OR a moving and non stopped afv.... I really dont understand. Thats too much for me... it surpasses my understanding... My brain is going to blast
The best way to envision the effects is to refer to C.8 as indicated by rule. If you have moved into a new hex or have started your MPh In-Motion you are considered moving; if you have expended a start MP prior to using the sM you are considered non-stopped but still may not be considered moving if you haven't entered a new hex so hence the use of the "/" between moving and non-stopped as they don't always mean the same. If you begin your MPh by attempting a sM as its first action in its MPh it is neither moving nor non-stopped and need not apply the modifier [nor if using it as a form of defensive fire (D13.2) if not In-Motion at that instance].
 

johnl

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Let me take a crack at this one, if only for my own self.

A vehicle can assume three basic states: stopped, non-stopped, and moving. These states are perfectly explained by sparafucil, Eagle4ty, et AL above.
The rule syntax moving/non-stopped should be read moving and non-stopped, moving or non-stopped. This excludes the stopped state.
This is ASL English and was probably not covered in class. 😊
 

Sparafucil3

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Let me take a crack at this one, if only for my own self.

A vehicle can assume three basic states: stopped, non-stopped, and moving. These states are perfectly explained by sparafucil, Eagle4ty, et AL above.
The rule syntax moving/non-stopped should be read moving and non-stopped, moving or non-stopped. This excludes the stopped state.
This is ASL English and was probably not covered in class. 😊
The virgule ("\") as punctuation means "and or". I laugh when I see "and\or" as it literally means "and and or or". The index of the ASLRB defines it as "and or" as well. When you say "moving/non-stopped" it means if one or the other applies. But to bring the point full circle. It is possible to be moving and "stopped", even though you perhaps used the wrong word here. Again, in ASL Moving is defined as the unit/stack conducting its MPh. Only one unit/stack is ever moving at one time. If you meant "Moving Target", then again, it is possible to be both Stopped and a Moving Target.

This is one of those sections of the rules that can take some time to get you head around but if you want to be better at playing AFV's in ASL, it's critical to gain understanding of C.8 and how it modifies TH DRM's. -- jim
 
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Juan SantaX

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The virgule ("\") as punctuation means "and or". I laugh when I see "and\or" as it literally means "and and or or". The index of the ASLRB defines it as "and" or as well. When you say "moving/non-stopped" it means if one or the other applies. But to bring the point full circle. It is possible to be moving and "stopped", even though you perhaps used the wrong word here. Again, in ASL Moving is defined as the unit/stack conducting its MPh. Only one unit/stack is ever moving at one time. If you meant "Moving Target", then again, it is possible to be both Stopped and a Moving Target.

This is one of those sections of the rules that can take some time to get you head around but if you want to be better at playing AFV's in ASL, it's critical to gain understanding of C.8 and how it modifies TH DRM's. -- jimBu
Well, I didn´t look at the index for /, and then I found it as and/or as you say!!!!! :eek:😂😂😂

I dont think I got badly the AFV fighthing. I know when I have to use the point blank drm and what to do when an AFV with a big frontal AF get adyacent to my hull down AFV or how to coordinate my armoured asssets (but sometimes I forgot how to do it.... And I hate that!! Why dont you lot speak spanish so I dont have to do the extra effort when I´m playing? XD) .

The problem was with the / and the sM rule !!

I took a look at the CCTable.... There are a lot of /, and for sure a squad cannot be japanese and gurkha, or skier and truck passenger.... So it must be "or".

But when its used with two opposite states my brain goes to "and"

Moving and stopped as opposite to​
Moving and non stopped
Because if you are moving, it doesnt matter if you are stopped or non stopped . Its redundant the after slash. In my brain there cannot be redundances, becasue it blurs things. If there is a possible meaning that isn´t redundant, I must take that (30 years fighting with spanish tax laws...)

But, alas, the index says /= and/or, so I have to reset my circuits

Anyway, I hope Jim that you dont have to explain that again.....

Thank you everybody for your patience !! I hope God rewards you for teaching the ignorant!!!

(Ps: I told you I was dumb)






 
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