Skulking... Strategy or Sleaze?

[Jeffhew]

I am getting back into ASL after a 20 or so year hiatus. I have been searching and reading as much info as I can to get back up to speed. Fortunately, this site has a plethora of articles and player aids to make this transition as painless as possible.

I have come across numerous articles on the "sleazy" tactics used by some, but this one on skulking seems to have a number of supporters on both sides of the argument. I know I am probably opening up a heated debate but I would really like to hear the opinions of both newbies and veterans alike.

As I see it, moving in and out of the LOS of enemy units to deny fire opportunities seems a valid tactic. I think that it is pretty realistic to expect your enemy to try to deny you a clear shot, however, I also try to look at the scale of the game. 40 meters per hex and 2 minutes per turn. Would someone really run 130 feet away and back to accomplish this.

Of course, I could be WAY off base here so, if I am, please be gentle. I am, after all, learning all over again.

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Fred Ingram]

I am getting back into ASL after a 20 or so year hiatus. I have been searching and reading as much info as I can to get back up to speed. Fortunately, this site has a plethora of articles and player aids to make this transition as painless as possible.

I have come across numerous articles on the "sleazy" tactics used by some, but this one on skulking seems to have a number of supporters on both sides of the argument. I know I am probably opening up a heated debate but I would really like to hear the opinions of both newbies and veterans alike.

As I see it, moving in and out of the LOS of enemy units to deny fire opportunities seems a valid tactic. I think that it is pretty realistic to expect your enemy to try to deny you a clear shot, however, I also try to look at the scale of the game. 40 meters per hex and 2 minutes per turn. Would someone really run 130 feet away and back to accomplish this.

Of course, I could be WAY off base here so, if I am, please be gentle. I am, after all, learning all over again.

Thanks,
Jeff

In the "design for effect" paradigm, do not take the time/space scales litrally

It will just screw you into the ground

 

[Jazz]

A game is a game is a game is a......

I am getting back into ASL after a 20 or so year hiatus. I have been searching and reading as much info as I can to get back up to speed. Fortunately, this site has a plethora of articles and player aids to make this transition as painless as possible.

I have come across numerous articles on the "sleazy" tactics used by some, but this one on skulking seems to have a number of supporters on both sides of the argument. I know I am probably opening up a heated debate but I would really like to hear the opinions of both newbies and veterans alike.

As I see it, moving in and out of the LOS of enemy units to deny fire opportunities seems a valid tactic. I think that it is pretty realistic to expect your enemy to try to deny you a clear shot, however, I also try to look at the scale of the game. 40 meters per hex and 2 minutes per turn. Would someone really run 130 feet away and back to accomplish this.

Of course, I could be WAY off base here so, if I am, please be gentle. I am, after all, learning all over again.

Thanks,
Jeff

It's both, a strategy AND a sleaze.....under the definition of "sleaze" put forth by the Big Black Book of ASL Sleaze...

The Big Black Book of ASL Sleaze

:smoke:

 

[Jeffhew]

It's both, a strategy AND a sleaze.....under the definition of "sleaze" put forth by the Big Black Book of ASL Sleaze...

The Big Black Book of ASL Sleaze

:smoke:

Which is exactly why I was asking the question. The Big Black Book of ASL Sleaze is where I first saw it. It does seem to imply that it is both. I'm curious to see how it is percieved in the ASL community. Is it more commonly considered Strategy or sleaze by folks playing the game. I would think that a "pro" would see it as strategically sound but that a NOOB would see it as kind of sleazy.

I'd love to see more feedback
Jeff

 

[Blackcloud6]

Well I don't consider anything done within the rules as "sleazy." So rules allow it, it's not sleaze. If it is perceived to be ahistorical, than the game is il-designed or the historical application is not understood.

In this case I can fathom that the soldiers are purposely moving to not become good targets. They are adjusting thier postion, using terrain to their benefit. Shooting and moving to another firing position, ducking etc.

 

[MLaPanzer]

Skulking! Works for me right along with VBF and Kindling. It's in the rules and you don't use it to your advantage thats your problem.

 

[soggycrow]

The rules allow it, and that's the bottom line. If you want to ban it as a house rule, a lot of people won't come over to your house.

 

[Blackcloud6]

Skulking! Works for me right along with VBF and Kindling. It's in the rules and you don't use it to your advantage thats your problem

I agree. And I think VBM freeze is one of the great designs in the game.

 

[DerBlitzer]

I would think that a "pro" would see it as strategically sound but that a NOOB would see it as kind of sleazy.

I'd love to see more feedback
Jeff

I think this is accurate, from what I've seen. If you play in a tournament or in a serious game, your opponent, if he's experienced, will use it. It's hard to say whether it bears much correlation with reality. But the movement into and out of hexes doesn't mean that troops are moving exactly 40 meters every time---the distance is just a necessary abstraction. They might be moving much less than that, particularly if you look at the distance between two buildings, say, which are quite close, but in different hexes. The distance between them might be 10 meters. Or if you're skulking back to a hex in the same building, then you might be moving only ten feet. So you could argue, in some cases, that this "sleaze" is simply a realistic maneuvering by troops to duck and cover for 20 seconds or so before firing the next shot.

Bear in mind that this is a defensive strategy. If you're on the attack or trying to advance, you'd be wise not to use it.

 

[peterk1]

Just think of it as putting your squad in "Hide" mode for a while (if you play Combat Mission...the analogy works)

You get less shots but you get exposed to less shots too.

The price of entry for the privilege is being able to move to a location that's out of LOS to the enemy. Once the position is so compromised you can't do that any more, you can no longer hide from enemy fire.

 

[wrongway149]

You get less shots but you get exposed to less shots too.

The price of entry for the privilege is being able to move to a location that's out of LOS to the enemy. Once the position is so compromised you can't do that any more, you can no longer hide from enemy fire.

And this why ASL is really a game of maneuver rather than fire. An attacker should try and pinch the enemy's flanks, so as to be able to 'compromise' an enemy position. COnversely, the longer a defender can hold his flanks, the greater his chance of ultimate victory in most cases.

As others have said, only misunderstanding the concept of 'design for effect' will lead one to question the realism of this tactic.

 

[Mr Incredible]

I'm still waiting for Oberst Balck to chip in with his whine about ASL not modelling actual combat.

It's a game mechanic that comes about due to the IGOUGO game mechanics. Live with it, embrace it and use it. One day you'll come across an experienced player who will use it or who will give you a pasting if you don't use it.

I have played less experienced players that haven't used it and they learnt very quickly to use it thereafter.

:ciao:

 

[Jazz]

It's both, a strategy AND a sleaze.....under the definition of "sleaze" put forth by the Big Black Book of ASL Sleaze...

The Big Black Book of ASL Sleaze

:smoke:

And just in case anybody got the wrong idea....I will use with little or no guilt any and all of the legal sleaze in the Big Black Book....

 

[Carl]

I'll use it all the time. It's sound tactical maneuvering. And remember that the "book of sleaze" is purely an amateur collection of ideas the opponent thought of first.

Carl

 

[Jeffhew]

And this why ASL is really a game of maneuver rather than fire. An attacker should try and pinch the enemy's flanks, so as to be able to 'compromise' an enemy position. COnversely, the longer a defender can hold his flanks, the greater his chance of ultimate victory in most cases.

As others have said, only misunderstanding the concept of 'design for effect' will lead one to question the realism of this tactic.

I didn't mean to imply that I was stuck on 40 and 2. I could just see the argument. The best way to explain how I feel about it is to quote another post...

Well I don't consider anything done within the rules as "sleazy." So rules allow it, it's not sleaze. If it is perceived to be ahistorical, than the game is il-designed or the historical application is not understood.

In this case I can fathom that the soldiers are purposely moving to not become good targets. They are adjusting thier postion, using terrain to their benefit. Shooting and moving to another firing position, ducking etc.

And let there be no mistake. I echo the sentiments of another great Coloradan...

And just in case anybody got the wrong idea....I will use with little or no guilt any and all of the legal sleaze in the Big Black Book....

This is very educational.
Thanks everyone for your continued posts!

 

[alanp]

Skulking is a mandatory game tactic to master if you wish to become a better player.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

As I see it, moving in and out of the LOS of enemy units to deny fire opportunities seems a valid tactic. I think that it is pretty realistic to expect your enemy to try to deny you a clear shot, however, I also try to look at the scale of the game. 40 meters per hex and 2 minutes per turn. Would someone really run 130 feet away and back to accomplish this.

Don't look at it as movement, just think of it as ducking, or moving into a more interior room in a house ... your guys are ducking behind a wall or room out of enemy' LOS. The way the system is, this is an impossible thing to model, but skulking models the effect just great.

Design for effect.

 

[James Taylor]

When I use it, it is sound tactics. A temporary withdrawal to consider the situation.

When you use it, it is sleaze.

Don't be a wimp. Stand too, and let those cardboard soldiers take their punishment like real men.

JT

 

[echack]

As far as how skulking is perceived in the ASL community, I don't think it is a big deal. I recently got back into the game and played an ASLSK scenario at a game convention. The experienced player I was teamed with covered skulking in his rules review for me and mentioned that it was a common tactic.

 

[Bob Holmstrom]

Sometimes i get into an "auto-skulk" mode which isn't good either. Sometimes it is better to shoot than skulk.

I remember skulking out of the victory building in Shanghai in Flames whilst 2 Japanese squads were in it also, handing building control to my opponent and losing the game.