Skis and SMC

Philippe D.

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I am not sure I have ever played scenarios with Skis - if I have, it must be a long time ago - but I am getting ready to play one, so I'm reviewing the Ski rules...

Is there some rule that allows a SMC to benefit from the Skis of a MMC it is moving with? (for Cavalry A13 or Motorcycles D15, a SMC can get somehow split a SMC-size cycle/horse from a MMC-sized one, but I don't see a similar provision for Skis). Or do you have to assign "full" Ski counters to leaders in order to have them move on Skis?
 

klasmalmstrom

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I believe an SMC needs his own Ski counter, but those are usually given by SSR so it shouldn't be an issue.
 

Philippe D.

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Well, I'm getting ready to play KGS3, where the Germans have a total of 3 Ski counters. So they could be used to equip 3 full squads, or just 2 squads and have a Leader move with them.

BTW - the Leader movement bonus still applies to Ski movement, right? A4.11 states that a Leader is reduced to 4MF if it "mounts... any form of conveyance", but I don't believe Skis are considered as such.
 

Robin Reeve

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The problem, contrary to horses or cycles, is that you don't have ski counters adapted to the units' sizes.
In theory, a leader can drop his skis and a squad can pick them up...
 

Gordon

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One guy on skis with the other 10 - 12 standing on his shoulders?
 

Doug Leslie

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The problem, contrary to horses or cycles, is that you don't have ski counters adapted to the units' sizes.
In theory, a leader can drop his skis and a squad can pick them up...
Common sense would suggest noting the size of the skis on a side note (or labelling them in VASL). That kind of begs the question as to how to treat a "HS size" ski counter though. There is no provision in the rules for automatic deployment in that situation.
 

BattleSchool

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Well, I'm getting ready to play KGS3, where the Germans have a total of 3 Ski counters. So they could be used to equip 3 full squads, or just 2 squads and have a Leader move with them.
I think the real issue is with the scenario.

As Klas has already alluded, SSR usually state that all or part of a given OB have Skis. Also note that a unit may not carry Skis in excess of its "own usage requirements," or unit size.

However, KGS does have an SSR that allows the German player to designate a leader as Ski Troops.

KGS3.6 allows the German player to designate one leader as "Ski-Troops" for every four squad-equivalents of Ski Troops (FRU). That implies to me that you can give skis to one leader (at start).

18938

BTW - the Leader movement bonus still applies to Ski movement, right? A4.11 states that a Leader is reduced to 4MF if it "mounts... any form of conveyance", but I don't believe Skis are considered as such.
I'd agree with you. Leader Bonus applies. See last paragraph of illustrated EX in E4.82 (rules for Ahkio).
 
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Philippe D.

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However, KGS does have an SSR that allows the German player to designate a leader as Ski Troops.
"Ski troops" just means ski-capable, right? It doesn't give them Ski counters. So if they happen to find unpossessed Skis, they can use them - which typically won't do them much good because they mostly want to use them to cross the Lovat (and, well, move up the other side).

So in the scenario, the German has a lot of ski-capable units (all 468/248, 3 leaders, all 3 crews), but only enough Skis for 3 units. In my case, since the Russians had left enough unwatched hexes, it meant all 3 Skiers crossed on turn 1 and went back up to lvl -2 or -1 (CX).
 

BattleSchool

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"Ski troops" just means ski-capable, right? It doesn't give them Ski counters. So if they happen to find unpossessed Skis, they can use them - which typically won't do them much good because they mostly want to use them to cross the Lovat (and, well, move up the other side).

So in the scenario, the German has a lot of ski-capable units (all 468/248, 3 leaders, all 3 crews), but only enough Skis for 3 units. In my case, since the Russians had left enough unwatched hexes, it meant all 3 Skiers crossed on turn 1 and went back up to lvl -2 or -1 (CX).
I had no part in writing the rules for KGS. But from what is written in KGS3.6, it seems to me that the number of leaders (and crews) that may begin play as "Ski Troops" is based on the number of squad-eqivalents that qualify as "Ski Troops" under KGS3.6. (This includes 5-4-8 squads too.) The implication is that any leaders or crews that are granted "Ski-Troop" status begin play with skis. While I agree that this is not explicit in the KGS rule, I think that the ski counters in the OB are provided to equip squads/HS at start.

This is borne out in "official" scenarios such as J37 where the Germans receive three ski counters for four units. Nothing in the SSR identifies these units as ski troops or ski-capable units. It's left to the player to figure that out.

18953

Admittedly, J3 is plagued with errors, and this might be one of them. But it doesn't make a lot of sense for the J37 OB to include only three ski counters for four units, unless the leader is automatically considered to have his own ski counter.

A more germane example would be KGS17, a scenario with two ski counters in the Russian OB, and an SSR that designates Russian 5-2-7/2-2-7s and any one leader as "Ski Troops."

18954

Unfortunately E4. doesn't help either. It's quite vague with regard to SMC. I suspect that skis are supposed to be treated similar to bicycles, with SMC being entitled to a one-man, white counter. Given that we don't have separate ski counters for HS, it's not surprising that there are none for SMC. But there aren't a lot of scenarios featuring skis to begin with.
 

klasmalmstrom

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This is borne out in "official" scenarios such as J37 where the Germans receive three ski counters for four units. Nothing in the SSR identifies these units as ski troops or ski-capable units. It's left to the player to figure that out.

View attachment 18953

Admittedly, J3 is plagued with errors, and this might be one of them. But it doesn't make a lot of sense for the J37 OB to include only three ski counters for four units, unless the leader is automatically considered to have his own ski counter.
One also has to take into account that the Skis rules were updated in HP, so scenario J37 was published under the old Ski rules. Not that I know it they treated SMC any different then then current version. I doubt they did.
 

BattleSchool

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One also has to take into account that the Skis rules were updated in HP, so scenario J37 was published under the old Ski rules. Not that I know it they treated SMC any different then then current version. I doubt they did.
I was just about to mention this. J38 (also from Journal 3) is more explicit wrt SMC. The OB includes two ski counters, and the following SSR for SMC:
18955

Although the rules for skis were updated in 2014, nothing in them addresses ski-counter "size" or how SMC should be treated. The scenarios in HP partly get around this by stating that all Personnel of a given OB have "Skis (E4.)." I'm not aware of any HP scenario that includes ski counters in an OB.

E4.2 SKI MODE:
...Ski-capable units (those beginning a scenario with ski counters or that pass a ski-use dr; 4.21)
 

Philippe D.

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I had no part in writing the rules for KGS. But from what is written in KGS3.6, it seems to me that the number of leaders (and crews) that may begin play as "Ski Troops" is based on the number of squad-eqivalents that qualify as "Ski Troops" under KGS3.6. (This includes 5-4-8 squads too.)
This was my reading, though I didn't include 5-4-8 in the count - KGS3.6 only describes them as Assault Engineers and as having Winter Camouflage.

The implication is that any leaders or crews that are granted "Ski-Troop" status begin play with skis. While I agree that this is not explicit in the KGS rule, I think that the ski counters in the OB are provided to equip squads/HS at start.
Hmm, I had not read it this way. Giving free Skis to some of the leaders would have been nice; giving them to the Crews (the Germans have more Crews than Crew-served weapons) would have let them follow the Skiers as well...
 

BattleSchool

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This was my reading, though I didn't include 5-4-8 in the count - KGS3.6 only describes them as Assault Engineers and as having Winter Camouflage.

Hmm, I had not read it this way. Giving free Skis to some of the leaders would have been nice; giving them to the Crews (the Germans have more Crews than Crew-served weapons) would have let them follow the Skiers as well...
I agree that KGS3.6 is amibiguous. I'm willing to concede that the 5-4-8/2-3-8s are not "Ski Troops," although this should be more explicit. But even if we ignore the 5-4-8s in KGS3, there is a question as to whether all the 4-6-8/2-4-8s considered "Ski Troops," or only those that set up in hexes ≥ 22. The former would allow all crews to have skis, while the latter would allow only two.

The lower number makes more sense. It would grant skis to three 4-6-8-equivalents, two leaders, two crews, and two Dummy counters in the topmost OB below. That's probably the intent. Andy ought to be able to settle this.

18956
 

volgaG68

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Reply from the designer:

"Answer: The crew/SMC do not get "free" Ski counters."
 

volgaG68

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So the Russians in KGS17 can opt to either have a leader and a squad have skis, or two squads have skis?
Sorry, I mistakenly posted Andy's answer to a copy/paste I did of the OP's question that he also posted (same topic) on the LFT sub-forum.

"Scenario KGS3 Following the rules discussion on Skis and equipping SMC with them, I have a question on the intent in this scenario. The scenario gives 3 Ski counters to the Germans, and KGS3.6 says that when the Germans have some Skis, the 4-6-8/2-4-8 are considered Ski Troops, and a number of Crews and SMC are also considered Ski Troops. Is the intent that these crew/SMC get "free" Ski counters? Or does the German player, if he wants to give Skis to them (or if he wants to Deploy ski-users) have to allocate them from the 3 counters? (From a pure reading of the rules, it is my understanding that equipping a HS, or Crew, or SMC, with Skis has the same "cost" as with a Squad: one Ski counter; this is in contrast with Horses or Motorcycles, which come in different sizes)"


Reply from the designer:

"Answer: The crew/SMC do not get "free" Ski counters."
 
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