Sk Questions

[JCusick]

2 Questions from Newbie

#1) It is the MPh. An MG fires no ROF, is marked First Fire but possessing squad has not fired at all so is not marked. If MG only fires again SFF, it is marked Final Fire, but does possessing squad also get marked Final Fire or can it still First Fire ?
I know from rules that if reverse were true in this situation, Squad DFF then SFF the MG would be marked Final Fire.

#2) It is the PFPh. If a support weapon, MG, FT, PIAT, etc... fires by itself without possessing squad firing at all during this phase, can they move during MPh?
It seems they can because the squad did not actually fire it’s inherent FP in PFPh.

Any help is much appreciated!

 

[klasmalmstrom]

#1) It is the MPh. An MG fires no ROF, is marked First Fire but possessing squad has not fired at all so is not marked. If MG only fires again SFF, it is marked Final Fire, but does possessing squad also get marked Final Fire or can it still First Fire ?

Yes, both the MG and squad would be marked "Final Fire".

#2) It is the PFPh. If a support weapon, MG, FT, PIAT, etc... fires by itself without possessing squad firing at all during this phase, can they move during MPh? It seems they can because the squad did not actually fire it’s inherent FP in PFPh.

No, the squad fired - albeit a SW - during the PFPh, and would be marked "Prep Fire" at the end of the PFPh - even if it does not fire its inherent FP.

 

[jrv]

#1 Both weapon and unit possessing it are marked with Final Fire

3.3.3 is a little fuzzy in that it says the unit is marked with First Fire. This should say that if the unit or weapon is marked with a first fire counter. This is based off the behavior in ASL, so it is possible that the intention for ASLSK is different. I don't think so, but you could send MMP a query if you feel the intention was to change the rule.

#2 The unit may not move. Per 3.2.5, "The firing unit (and Weapon) is marked with a Prep Fire marker." Per 3.3 units that fired during the PFPh can move, and being marked with a Prep Fire Marker is equivalent to having fired.

JR

 

[thively]

Question on Routing.

Can a broken unit in a woods hex without a DM marker and not in LOS of an enemy unit voluntarily rout? I have SK4 rules, and in looking at the rout section 3.6, page 16, middle column paragraph 3 it says "A Broken unit may rout if under DM" The closest thing I notice to a voluntary rout is in paragraph one, middle column, p16: "A broken unit may always rout out of a building in which it begins its RtPh." I'm not really persuaded that this means that a broken unit not under DM can rout. Any help appreciated.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A broken unit can only rout if under DM.

 

[jrv]

Question on Routing.

Can a broken unit in a woods hex without a DM marker and not in LOS of an enemy unit voluntarily rout? I have SK4 rules, and in looking at the rout section 3.6, page 16, middle column paragraph 3 it says "A Broken unit may rout if under DM" The closest thing I notice to a voluntary rout is in paragraph one, middle column, p16: "A broken unit may always rout out of a building in which it begins its RtPh." I'm not really persuaded that this means that a broken unit not under DM can rout.

You should not be persuaded. A broken unit without a DM counter on it may not rout. A broken unit in Open Ground in normal range and LOS of a Known Good Order enemy unit has a DM counter placed on it so it can rout. Otherwise the broken unit must begin the RtPh with a DM counter on it to rout.

That should also prevent the unit from routing out of the building in which it begins its RtPh if not under DM, i.e. that should only apply if it currently is under DM. The phrasing is unfortunately not as precise as could be desired.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

See also the Rout Phase Summary on page 17 of the SK4 rulebook:

 

[Ric of The LBC]

A broken unit in Open Ground in normal range and LOS of a Known Good Order enemy unit has a DM counter placed on it so it can rout. Otherwise the broken unit must begin the RtPh with a DM counter on it to rout.


JR

That is also my understanding BUT, I've never known where it states that in the rulebook. I'd like to know in ASL and SK.

Thanks

 

[thively]

Thanks to you all, that is what I thought, but wanted to be sure.

 

[jrv]

I posted it for a PerrySez as well:

ASLSK: broken unit without DM counter in building

I asked: Per 3.6 "a broken unit may always rout out of the building which it begins its RtPh." If the broken unit does not have a DM counter on it, can it rout out of that building anyway? No. ....Perry MMP

www.gamesquad.com

JR

 

[jrv]

That is also my understanding BUT, I've never known where it states that in the rulebook. I'd like to know in ASL and SK.

ASL: A10.5. The rule lists various situations where a unit must rout, all of which will put the unit under DM. It then adds, "A broken unit may rout if currently under DM."

For aslsk, the Rout Phase Summary seems to be the one place that says it. The word "only" was added to "May rout only if under a DM counter" in ASLSK4.

And I must say that the layout in aslsk4 is annoying, because rule 3.6 is on the page 15-16 boundary, while the Rout Phase Summary is on the right edge of page 17, and it's not easy to notice it when looking at 3.6 on the other side.

JR

 

[Ric of The LBC]

ASL: A10.5. The rule lists various situations where a unit must rout, all of which will put the unit under DM. It then adds, "A broken unit may rout if currently under DM."

For aslsk, the Rout Phase Summary seems to be the one place that says it. The word "only" was added to "May rout only if under a DM counter" in ASLSK4.

And I must say that the layout in aslsk4 is annoying, because rule 3.6 is on the page 15-16 boundary, while the Rout Phase Summary is on the right edge of page 17, and it's not easy to notice it when looking at 3.6 on the other side.

JR

So here what I don't understand. A broken unit that must route but cannot reach a building or woods during the RtPh, can route to any terrain. If that final destination is an Open Ground hex, that is not subject to interdiction (out of LOS or hindrances, not defined by 10.531) is the DM counter removed at the end of the next RPh, thus not enabling the broken unit to continue to a building or woods? Where is this in SK and ASL?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

For aslsk, the Rout Phase Summary seems to be the one place that says it. The word "only" was added to "May rout only if under a DM counter" in ASLSK4.

The word "only" is also present in the SK #1 10th Anniv. edition. So the additon in SK #4 is likely compared to the rulebook from Elst.

 

[WuWei]

So here what I don't understand. A broken unit that must route but cannot reach a building or woods during the RtPh, can route to any terrain. If that final destination is an Open Ground hex, that is not subject to interdiction (out of LOS or hindrances, not defined by 10.531) is the DM counter removed at the end of the next RPh, thus not enabling the broken unit to continue to a building or woods? Where is this in SK and ASL?

You may keep your DM at the end of the RtPh if the broken unit is not in rally terrain.

 

[jrv]

So here what I don't understand. A broken unit that must route but cannot reach a building or woods during the RtPh, can route to any terrain. If that final destination is an Open Ground hex, that is not subject to interdiction (out of LOS or hindrances, not defined by 10.531) is the DM counter removed at the end of the next RPh, thus not enabling the broken unit to continue to a building or woods? Where is this in SK and ASL?

The broken unit always has the option to remove its DM in the RPh regardless of terrain and regardless of whether it can be interdicted as long as it is not ADJACENT to a KEU [A10.62]. If it is in woods/building/pillbox/trench (and not ADJACENT), it must remove the DM (unless overstacked) [A10.62]. At the start of the RtPh if it is in Open Ground, normal range, etc, so it is required to rout and not marked with a DM counter, it can place a new DM counter per 3.6 in aslsk & per A10.62 in asl. It can then rout, although it might not reach woods or building in this new attempt either (e.g. on a desert board).

JR