SK#2 Gun question

[Raskal67]

Hello All
A British Bofers AA Gun is in a woods hex and has an IFE of 8. Enemy unit moves into LOS in the woods. The Bofers has to change CA 2 hexspines to get the target within the CA. The To Hit process is clear to me if using the 40L +1/+1/(+1) for CA change, doubled for Bofers being in the woods.
Rule 6.8 states that if IFE fire is used it is the same as MG fire including DFF/SFF opportunities. My opponent says I need to add the CA changes as DRM. My confusion is that is not what the rules say. HELP! This is my first time to play this opponent and I don't want to be a rules lawyer but the rules for ASLSK Guns are or seem a little different.
Thanks
Paul

 

[BuckeyeMiniMe]

Hello All
A British Bofers AA Gun is in a woods hex and has an IFE of 8. Enemy unit moves into LOS in the woods. The Bofers has to change CA 2 hexspines to get the target within the CA. The To Hit process is clear to me if using the 40L +1/+1/(+1) for CA change, doubled for Bofers being in the woods.
Rule 6.8 states that if IFE fire is used it is the same as MG fire including DFF/SFF opportunities. My opponent says I need to add the CA changes as DRM. My confusion is that is not what the rules say. HELP! This is my first time to play this opponent and I don't want to be a rules lawyer but the rules for ASLSK Guns are or seem a little different.
Thanks
Paul

It says "Like a MG, an IFE Gun may use..." The key words are "Like" and "Gun". All guns changing CA are penalized. I'm no rules lawyer, but that's the way I play it.

 

[Strabo]

It says "Like a MG, an IFE Gun may use..." The key words are "Like" and "Gun". All guns changing CA are penalized. I'm no rules lawyer, but that's the way I play it.

I had that problem as well, and this was how I resolved it. The alternative is that an IFE using AA gun isn't penalised for changing CA, which doesn't seem sensible.

*Slap!*
COWTRA!
*Slap!*

 

[Raskal67]

Thanks, but

I can see your points but that is not what the rules state.
Advantages to IFE
No "to hit" process
Ability to SFF/FPF
Not subject to cowering
Disadvantages
ROF lowered by 1
May not form a FG
Range limited to 16 hexes
Risk of removal on an original 12 for DFPh on adjacent unit and B# reduced by 2 for same

These are the rules unless I am missing something.
I can find nothing that states a "To Hit" DRM becomes an IFT DRM for IFE use.

I appreciate the opinions but can anyone state a "rule"?

Thanks
Paul

 

[SamB]

How about the "rule" that talks about a penalty when you change CA with a Gun?

 

[jserrano]

When playing SK scenarios we have a house rule that says we should use the ASLRB to solve any problems with the SK rules.

In this case the Tome says: C2.29: A Gun using IFE..., must pay TH Case A DRM as IFT DRM when changing CA to fire.

Since we have agreed beforehand to apply full ASL rules in case of doubt, we decided that the CA change cost had to be paid.

YMMV,

José

 

[Raskal67]

Hi Sam

Sam,
I am aware of the ASL rules I was speaking of an ASLSK "rule", Thanks for the contribution but can you help me by pointing me in the right direction to find a reference? If this is unclear to me, maybe, in the new starter kit #3, this can be added to clear up any misunderstanding.
Thanks
Paul

 

[bludengutz]

Section 6.8 et al

Hi Sam

As far as I can see, a Gun using IFE pays no DRM penalty for changing CA, in the SK2 rules. This is covered by 6.8 in the rules, IFE is used directly on the IFT without using the To Hit process, and also is not considered Ordnance. The penalization comes from lowering of ROF by 1 for IFE use, and inability to Acquire a target, or lose any existing Acquisition.

Also, the QRDC lists the DRM applicable for IFT fire, and changing CA is NOT one of them. Luckily a Bofors has a 360 mount, or its ROF would be further lowered by 1 for a CA change.

Also, check Section 3.2.4, dealing with the TH process. IFE is NOT mentioned, because it doesn't use the TH process, and therefore is not affected by DRMs that apply to TH rolls.

The current version of the SK3 playtest rules is unchanged from SK2 in this respect also.

To conclude, a Gun using IFE has no DRM for changing CA when using IFE under SK rules.

 

[Lehr]

.......a Gun using IFE has no DRM for changing CA when using IFE under SK rules.

I agree. This is how I have read the SK rules.

 

[cdeanesmith]

When playing SK scenarios we have a house rule that says we should use the ASLRB to solve any problems with the SK rules.

In this case the Tome says: C2.29: A Gun using IFE..., must pay TH Case A DRM as IFT DRM when changing CA to fire.

Since we have agreed beforehand to apply full ASL rules in case of doubt, we decided that the CA change cost had to be paid.

YMMV,

José

I think you all have just answered you own question. The DRM for CA is applied agains the TH roll. In SK, I don't know what it says in the ASLRB, you don't have a TH when firing IFE. How can you apply a DRM against something you don't roll?

Others have asked this question and resolved it the same way. No TH roll, no DRM for CA change.

 

[C.G.Granda]

We played it as it reads in the SK booklet. When using IFE a Gun is not Ordnance, so none of the Ordnance rules apply unless explicitely mentioned. In the ASLRB it is explicitely mentioned that CA costs apply to IFE, but that is not the case in the SK. What is mentioned are the ROF lowering and no Acquisition. So we play Guns using IFE as reaaaally heavy HMGs. We may be wrong but that is how the SK rules read to us.
I think that experienced ASL players read the SK rules with a bagage of knowledge we newbies do not have, and interpret the rules not for what they say, but for what they know it is meant. It is no big deal, just let us newbies, use our IFE Guns with free CA changes and we'll let you pay CA costs when you play yours. Maybe this way we'll be able to win a few games out of your lot. ...Carlos

 

[cdeanesmith]

In the ASLRB it is explicitely mentioned that CA costs apply to IFE, but that is not the case in the SK. What is mentioned are the ROF lowering and no Acquisition.

I was just reading through the ASLRB rules today because I'm playing an ASL game that has some guns and AFV's. The actual rule (C2.29) in the ASLRB says "A gun using IFE ... must pay TH Case A DRM as IFT DRM when changing CA to fire (D3.52) ... (A9.4)." That's the part that's missing from the SK#2 RB on IFE.

I don't blame the experienced ASL'ers for getting that one confused. MMP seems to have changed a few of the rules in such a way that they get overlooked. Some of the rules are just different enough to really mess up someone who knows the full ASL rules.

 

[synicbast]

I don't blame the experienced ASL'ers for getting that one confused. MMP seems to have changed a few of the rules in such a way that they get overlooked. Some of the rules are just different enough to really mess up someone who knows the full ASL rules.

Hate to say it but that's one of the reasons I'm not bothering with ASLSK, I spent too many years unlearning bits and pieces of SL, COI, COD and GI along the way to ASL to want to revisit that (I still occasionally catch myself thinking in COI-GI terms) and the big kicker for me was the lack of concealment within the ASLSK system. That to me was the killer. Not being nasty here, I'm just not a good teacher of ASL myself, lacking the patience and to be honest, the necessary skills.

 

[jserrano]

I spent too many years unlearning bits and pieces of SL, COI, COD and GI along the way to ASL to want to revisit that (I still occasionally catch myself thinking in COI-GI terms) and the big kicker for me was the lack of concealment within the ASLSK system. That to me was the killer. Not being nasty here, I'm just not a good teacher of ASL myself, lacking the patience and to be honest, the necessary skills.

I admit I have played (and taught) some SK rules wrongly. I always told my SK learlings to pay CA costs when using IFE, they always protested but I'm the ASL guru around here :laugh: . Not using snipers or concealment is OK but when small bits of rules are left out it is more of a problem. Same happened a few days ago with buildings being only 1 level high instead of 1.5, or with routing units not surrendering but crawling away. I understand the logic behind the simplifications, after all this is a subset of ASL desgned to "introduce" new players to ASL.

In my experience with new players, they have no problem grasping the full rules of ASL after learning SK first. It is us, old grognards that have a problem when the rules we know are applied differently.

Still, I do enjoy SK scenarios, if only because it is for me the only way to play ftf players around here. Soon enough my little grasshopers will play real ASL (one of them already plays infantry only full ASL scenarios) and my investment on the SK modules and teaching time would have paid off.

José