Size Matters - LOS Hinderance counter questions

[Brave Lion]

I am working on a VASL extension that includes counters that create LOS hinderances and obstacles. I've tried figuring this out using the smoke counters for an example but I'm not sure how they work with the LOS engine. The problem is that some counters will be a .5 level hinderance while other counters will be a 1 level obstacle. Although I've figured out how to set the Marker - Hinderance = true property, they don't add a +1 hinderance to the LOS thread when I was testing them. Nor do the obstacle counters actually create an obstacle and block the LOS thread. Not sure what I'm doing wrong yet.

I've tried looking at the extremely large vehicles (+3 to +4 size) that are already in the counter tray, but they don't seem to block LOS either.

 

[DougRim]

This can be done but requires code changes within the VASL module. Creating the counters is the first important step but then the code must know to recognize such counters and apply them within the los engine code.

This code, when it is applied to counters which are los obstacles/hinderances, is not generic. It needs to know to look for specific counters.

Depending on the nature of the obstacle/hinderances and the los rules around it, the los engine may be able to handle the los impacts without further changes or more code may need to be created if it is a new kind of obstacle/hinderance.

This is all doable for many hinderances. For example, in 6.6.4 I was able to get the Drift counters to work with los. However, I was not able to do the same for Roadblock counters, which are hexside terrain just like drifts but have effects that extend into adjacent hexes. I have not yet found an approach that will work for them.

Happy to have further conversations on this with you.

 

[Brave Lion]

Well, that explains it. This is what I was suspecting, that the LOS string-to-counter interaction is hard coded into the module itself.

What I am looking for is something that mimics the LCI(S) or LCT(4), i.e., a Level 1 LOS Obstacle (wall-like) through the side VCAs but a Level 1 Hinderance (smoke-like) through the front/rear VCAs (although the rules (v1 version I'm afraid...not enough dollars I can sneak past my wife to get the v2 version yet) do not specify the hinderance effect it is implied). I'm pretty sure clever use of the Marker trait (or maybe something else I'm not aware of) would enable VASL to recognize these counters as extra-large vehicles. That part, however, is well above my expertise to program.

The majority of the counters that I'm making are in the -3 / -4 Target Size range like the LCI(S) and LCT(4). However, some are normal vehicle sized and therefore don't need special consideration, they are normal .5 Level LOS hinderances. And a few are hybrids between the normal .5 Level size and the large 1 Level size depending upon current configuration.

The last consideration for the very large size vehicles is that many of them are (multi)turreted with the turrets at either 1 Level or 1.5 Level (Rooftop). I'm not asking for much, am I?

In the meantime, I'll continue trying to set up these counters without the LOS effect enabled.

 

[DougRim]

Things are becoming clearer and easier.

If what you are doing is trying to add new vehicles then we should be able to get that to work - at least for the hinderance part. The obstacle part may require more work.

I looked at the VASL code for this and the way it works is that when a los check is called, the code searches all counters and looks for those that have a "name" property which matches a list of counters which have a los impact such as rubble and smoke. For those counters for which there is not a match (and this includes all vehicles) the code then checks to see if the Hinderance property of the counter = true. This should be the case for almost all vehicles (I think there may be some exceptions). So, your counters should be matched at this point and a Hinderance created.

Here is the code that matters:

// add vehicles
//TODO: assuming all hindrance counters that have no rule are vehicles - not good
if(piece.getProperty(ASLProperties.HINDRANCE) != null && !Boolean.TRUE.equals(piece.getProperty(Properties.MOVED))){

Vehicle v = new Vehicle(name, h.getNearestLocation(p.x, p.y));
addCounter(vehicleList, v, h);
}

Note that the spelling of the property is "Hindrance" and not "Hinderance". First thing I would suggest is that you check which spelling you actually used and make sure it is "Hindrance" (no quotes).

Let me know if this fixes the problem. If not, we can try something else. This will still not address the obstacle issue. I note that the LVT(4) only shows a LOSH during a los check and does not block los.

 

[Stewart]

Be aware that gun sizes don't matter in certain terrain and some vehicle TH modifiers also change per certain terrain features.

 

[Brave Lion]

You are correct. I'm working on some very large vehicles. Most are in the -3 size range (D1.7, C6.7, and H LC Note F) and are Level 1 LOS obstacles from the side VCA but Level 1 LOS hinderances from the front/rear VCA. The rest are normal sized vehicles that are only .5 Level LOS hinderances. There is, however, a hybrid type that can be either -2 size (i.e., a .5 Level LOS hinderance) or -3 size (i.e., a Level 1 LOS obstacle) depending on current configuration. I'm not sure how to implement such a changeling in VASL, or if it is even worth the effort to do it. At the very least I would like the -3 giants to interact correctly with the LOS engine.

All of the vehicles that I am working on were used in combat at some point in WWII. These are not hypothetical vehicles but a very specialized type of vehicle. I think that only -3/-4 size vehicles currently in VASL are the LCI(S) and the LCT(4). The LVT4 is a normal sized vehicle that should only be .5 level LOS hinderance.

I never knew that the spelling of hinderance had an effect on it. I think I can get the normal sized counters to work properly, it is just the extra-large ones that are the problem.

 

[DougRim]

You are correct. I'm working on some very large vehicles. Most are in the -3 size range (D1.7, C6.7, and H LC Note F) and are Level 1 LOS obstacles from the side VCA but Level 1 LOS hinderances from the front/rear VCA. The rest are normal sized vehicles that are only .5 Level LOS hinderances. There is, however, a hybrid type that can be either -2 size (i.e., a .5 Level LOS hinderance) or -3 size (i.e., a Level 1 LOS obstacle) depending on current configuration. I'm not sure how to implement such a changeling in VASL, or if it is even worth the effort to do it. At the very least I would like the -3 giants to interact correctly with the LOS engine.

I would need to do some coding for you to get the los engine to recognize these special counters. I don't see why it couldn't be done. I had some joy with the drift counters which are similar in that it depends which hexsides are crossed by the los.

I suggest that you get the extension up and running and send it to me and then I can try to get the los working for it.

Are you intending to make the extension available to all? Are these counters that exist in the ASL system? Sorry to say but if the answer to either of those questions is no, then I am not going to be able to give this a priority. Too much else already in the queue.

 

[Brave Lion]

The answers to your questions are yes and not yet. It doesn't have to be a priority for now. These are intended for a product that does not yet have a release date available. The vehicles that I'm working on do not yet exist in the ASL system but they should. They are historical vehicles that were used in combat throughout the early 20th century. The scenarios, rules, and counters are being developed for them and the extension I'm working on is for playtesting only at this time. Hopefully, if all goes well, this will be available for all in the (date to be determined) future. The LOS obstacle/hindrance function would be nice, but not necessary at present. I have enough to work with for now and we can keep this in mind for future development.

The only two vehicles currently in the ASL system that have this attribute are the LCI(S) and LCT(4). Would it be possible to add a marker value at this stage that would tag these vehicles for this LOS program in the future? If not, no worries, it can be back filled later.

 

[DougRim]

I am just about to start playing around with this.

One question: I see the reference to the LCT(4) being a 1 level obstacle across its side facing. But where does it say that they are 1 level Hindrance across the F/R facing?

 

[hongkongwargamer]

I am just about to start playing around with this.

One question: I see the reference to the LCT(4) being a 1 level obstacle across its side facing. But where does it say that they are 1 level Hindrance across the F/R facing?

You looking at the note for LCT(4)? See Note F (2nd paragraph)

 

[DougRim]

You looking at the note for LCT(4)? See Note F (2nd paragraph)

Thanks. Indeed I am looking at Note F. And it clearly sets out that it is a 1 level obstacle to los via any of the side facing hexsides. It is however silent about los crossing Front or Rear facing hexsides. Brave Lion tells me that in those cases a 1 level Hindrance applies. While I have no reason to dispute that, some rule confirmation would be useful.

For same-level los a .5 level Hindrance and 1 level Hindrance are essentially the same for los purposes and the current code can handle that. For different level los however, they are not the same. And would a LCT(4) 1 level Hindrance be like an in-season orchard or an out of season orchard?

 

[apbills]

I don't think it is a 1 level hindrance. All I can find is from Chapter G, so given that note F does not modify G12.81 for the hindrance level, just the side target facing LOS obstacle, I would not change that. Now Brave Lion may want the capacity to change it to a level 1 hindrance for the new extension counters.

12.81 HINDRANCE/TEM: Only a Beached LC can provide a +1 TEM/LOS-Hindrance as per D9.3-.4, treating the LC as if it were an AFV. A Passenger vehicle aboard a LC provides no such Hindrance/TEM [EXC: TEM as per 12.677].

 

[DougRim]

The answers to your questions are yes and not yet. It doesn't have to be a priority for now. These are intended for a product that does not yet have a release date available. The vehicles that I'm working on do not yet exist in the ASL system but they should. They are historical vehicles that were used in combat throughout the early 20th century. The scenarios, rules, and counters are being developed for them and the extension I'm working on is for playtesting only at this time. Hopefully, if all goes well, this will be available for all in the (date to be determined) future. The LOS obstacle/hindrance function would be nice, but not necessary at present. I have enough to work with for now and we can keep this in mind for future development.

The only two vehicles currently in the ASL system that have this attribute are the LCI(S) and LCT(4). Would it be possible to add a marker value at this stage that would tag these vehicles for this LOS program in the future? If not, no worries, it can be back filled later.

Based on the discussion above, I have not added the Hindrance marker to either the LCI(S) or the LCT(4) at this time. Should a rule require this later for these or other vehicles in an extension, it is easy to add the marker to them. I have recently done so for some terrain counters. Let me know when you are ready to go and I will be happy to help.