Sitzkrieg

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Does everyone agree with me that the Sitz is EXTREMELY boring??? I am wondering whether the very talented creator(s) might be able to think up some fine substitute for it - something that mirrors the cease fire, but alleviates the boredom on the player...

I know that it can be useful for one side to have that time to re-deploy, etc... But there might be another way... No? Am I crazy?
 

Mark Stevens

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This is a bit of a long-running issue.

In reality both sides (the German General Staff, if not actually Hitler himself) were reluctant to escalate the war into an all out European conflict after the collapse of Poland. Although Hitler pressed for dates for the invasion of France and the Low Countries as early as November 1939 the generals moaned about the need to resupply after Poland, absorb the lessons of the campaign, reposition the troops, etc. Also, while nothing compared to what they'd face in the USSR in winter 1941-2, the weather in Europe was the worst for decades and was considered unsuitable for campaigning. That, and the loss of the invasion plans in January 1940 when a plane carrying two German officers came down in Belgium during bad weather, was used as an excuse not to do anything until the weather improved. Coincidentally, this also allowed time for the Manstein Plan to permeate through to Hitler and be taken up by the German High Command.

The Allies, of course, weren't planning on doing anything anyway.

That's a brief history. If the game allows combat during the first winter the Axis player WILL attack in the West, assuming that he's playing a conventional game and has already knocked out Poland. Putting in supply or other shock penalties to simulate the weather will hamper both sides equally, and there's every chance, given the balance of forces, that an experienced Axis player will defeat France much earlier than historically. If he decides to wait to take on France until Spring 1940, the Axis would still be able to knock out Yugoslavia, Greece and perhaps Norway. This may bring in Bulgaria, Rumania and Hungary, and encourage the mobilisation of Italy. Either way, the main part of the scenario, the attack on the USSR, will commence a lot earlier than it did historically.

If we just penalise the Axis during the winter to discourage this, an experienced Allied player may be able to invade Germany or something similar.

Whatever the case, the scenario would quickly cease to resemble anything like WWII in Europe, which is the underlying idea.

The Sitzkrieg is a bit boring, and I'd welcome any suggestions for improving the situation, but the only option I can see is to allow combat, however heavily modified by penalties, and this will give the Axis an advantage that they didn't actually enjoy.

Wargamers, by their very nature, always want to be playing, but that didn't happen in Europe in the winter of 1939-40.

Welcome any suggestions.
 

Dan Neely

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One possible solution would be to decouple offensive and defensive shock. IE both players having a 100% modifier on the defense, but only say 30% on the attack.

Questions? Comments? Sarcasm?
 

Bdr.Mallette

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I believe all events have been used or want to be used for other issues.

It is a good idea though if I understand the direction that would take.
 

Mark Stevens

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Dan Neely said:
One possible solution would be to decouple offensive and defensive shock. IE both players having a 100% modifier on the defense, but only say 30% on the attack.

Questions? Comments? Sarcasm?
Question: can that actually be done within the normal engine - I thought it's either an Event raising or lowering the shock value, but can it be combined?

Comment: if it could be done we've two Events freed up by the cease and open fires, and I'm sure that I could cannibalise a couple more

Sarcasm: I'm working on it
 

viridomaros

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i have an idea
no more sitzkrieg gives a boost to the axis ok?

-then give the option to the neutral countries to redeploy before invaded come on it's not like the german attacked by surprise all the time.

- boost the french army a little bit
 
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Well I do like that the Axis can launch surprise attacks and this stays in line with history...

Maybe the Sitz can offer attacking but without the ability to occupy an enemy hex? Will the game allow this? This way border wars can rage but no real advantage can be gained except for boredom alleviation...

Also, if air and sea movement was not limited to friendly hexes - i.e. allow air/sea combat unimpeded...

OR, (or in addition to the above) you could create a Theater Option for the Axis "Winter Campaign 1939-1940" which would allow combat but also could: effect the USA entry, bring the USSR ability to DoW forward, give the French and the UK more units (they would surely have raised troops somehow if a crisis were on...), etc...

Just some ideas...
 

Mantis

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The one big advantage to the Sitz is that it gives an opportunity to the Allies to spank the Axis (to steal a phrase from Jam's book) if they try to push too fast, too early. Several times I've been able to make the Axis pay dearly for trying to take out France too quickly. Also, I've been a few hexes short of Paris myself on occassion, and had to watch the entire French army redeploy, rest and refit, while the panzers spun their wheels a hundred clicks outside of the capital.

The success of the blitz in France was almost as much a surprise to the Germans as it was to the French... Keep in mind that we get to play with 20/20 hindsight!

(Yes, I agree the turns can be boring, I don't dispute that one bit - but I have been able with roughly 50% of my opponents to find a time when we could both be online, and powered through the entire sitz in an afternoon or less. You just need to get most of your moving around done on the first few turns, and then you can pretty much skip everything else... I think my record was going through the entire thing in just over an hour with someone from here. It can be done!)
 

Dr. Foo

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In a different WWII game the designer allowed for the Winter War Nov 30 1939 – Mar 13th 1940 at least it gave players something to do between the fall of Poland and the Invasion of France. If Helsinki was not captured by Mar 13th a cease fire was imposed and then the Axis player only had to wait a few turns before he could invade Denmark and Norway in April 1940.
 

Mantis

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The winter war against the Finns is indeed an option here, but the sitz is a separate entity, and will occur, regardless of whether or not you choose to activate the winter war TO. (Odd, I know, but it's a game engine limitation).
 
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