Simplifying Festung Budapest

[Gunner Scott]

Howdy-

Ok, see'ing how very complicated FB is, who out there is modifying the CG rules and SSR's to make it more playable? Honestly, I really do like the maps and it is an SS module, so theres even more to like about it but why o why did Bill make it so complicated to play? Not downing his efforts but why could he not have used a more simple approach?


Scott

 

[jrv]

Easy peasy.

The Russian player makes a dr. On a 1-3, the Russian player has won. On a 4-6, the Axis player has won. Any other result is a draw. Shake hands.

JR

 

[Honza]

LMAO! That sorted that out then...:cheeky:

 

[Honza]

On a more serious note - perhaps Scott has a good point? Personally I can immerse myself in the complications and details of complex CGs, but I know they are not to everyones taste.

With the Iwo CG I'm working on I think it is imperative for me to offer a 'lite' version for those who want to play it but shy away from the complexity. Caves are complicated enough - particularly when you have dozens of them onboard. So a slightly simpler version of the CG will be on offer for those who want to take it easy.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Several levels of Ammo shortage is not good times, nor is the food shortage's, heck, who's going to remember so and so unit cant go CX? I know MMP fan boys will attack this thread, but honestly, where are the guys that playtested this module to give insight on why such rules were brought to light?

As for making FB playable, I'd say throw out the Food shortage rules and just lower that sides ELR. With Fuel shortage, just give the German armor Red MP's. As for Ammo Shortage, just use the rules from the ASLRB. Cellars, I'd say use the VotG or Red Barricades cellars minus them being fortified, the cellar rules in FB are a bit over the top. Theres probably more I can do to simplify FB to make it more playable but hopefully the above will help those that want to give this one a try.


Scott

On a more serious note - perhaps Scott has a good point? Personally I can immerse myself in the complications and details of complex CGs, but I know they are not to everyones taste.

With the Iwo CG I'm working on I think it is imperative for me to offer a 'lite' version for those who want to play it but shy away from the complexity. Caves are complicated enough - particularly when you have dozens of them onboard. So a slightly simpler version of the CG will be on offer for those who want to take it easy.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

I picked up FB a month or two ago, but haven't read through the rules yet. Comparing them though:
FB 46 pages
RB 22 pages
VOTG 32pages

And, thumbing the first few terrain pages, I noticed that in FB the first 12 pages were terrain pages (a shitload about train track); RB had the first 6 terrain, and VOTG had the first 4 terrain. VOTG also uses RB, so its length is something more like 40ish pages if you prorate out the RB CG stuff. I didn't compare the font sizes. So, it seems FB is longer, but a lot of that is terrain related. It would be interesting to compare the VOTG RRs to the FB RRs, see what the differences are between them.

 

[Honza]

FB is no simple late war, heavy metal, slugfest; the emphasis is on refinement. With a few ISUs and JSIIs as well as (more) Panthers and some Tiger Is added, with less ammo shortage and food shortage and fuel shortage, plus less emphasis on all the different troop types - and you would end up with a more straight forward late war city bash. But I don't think that is what Bill was aiming for.

A lot of players are really happy with FB as it is now. Personally I would have prefered something a bit grittier but each to their own.

 

[Portal]

Gunner Scott is bang-on. I haven't been that excited about FB because I already have a decent CH Berlin product for 1945 Russians on the attack urban action, but mostly because FB's wide variety of HASLSRs are a turn-off. Why are there Food Shortages in addition to tiers of Ammunition Shortage? Why do the new terrain pieces not mimic the similar terrain from previous HASLs? How does this all make the gaming more compelling?

 

[Portal]

And why couldn't the Debris and Rubble not already be located on the map? Sure, the random terrain creation is not overly complicated, but is it really necessary for all that die-rolling just to create the scenario map?

 

[Portal]

Why did the playtesters not challenge these design assumptions? Design for elegant effect!

 

[Gunner Scott]

Please please dont compare critical hit crap to FB, FB might have its faults but at least it is far more balanced then what ever ch can put out in a life time. Plus ch stuff looks like garbage, FB looks like a masterpiece.

On topic, yes I agree, I to wish he could have stuck more to the ASLRB rules wise instead of going wild with all that chrome in FB.

FB isl still a doable product but I prefer something a bit more easy going.

Scott

Gunner Scott is bang-on. I haven't been that excited about FB because I already have a decent CH Berlin product for 1945 Russians on the attack urban action, but mostly because FB's wide variety of HASLSRs are a turn-off. Why are there Food Shortages in addition to tiers of Ammunition Shortage? Why do the new terrain pieces not mimic the similar terrain from previous HASLs? How does this all make the gaming more compelling?

 

[Portal]

I didn't say my CH Berlin was best-in-class, but it is playable and I've played some fun, tight scenarios from it (as long as that bizarre Zoo Flak Tower doesn't appear).

 

[ChrisM]

Funny - I generally don't like overly complicated SSRs and will skip very popular designs because there is just too much going on in the SSR section - but I like the FB stuff. The ammo shortage is pretty easy to grok and really does give different scenarios different flavors depending on when the action took place. A lot of the other stuff does carry over from RB/VoTG and so far I have enjoyed the stuff I have played from this module.

I’m reading Siege of Budapest right now and looking forward to getting lots more scenarios in from this one. I don't even mind the Axis Minors that much!

 

[Srynerson]

Easy peasy.

The Russian player makes a dr. On a 1-3, the Russian player has won. On a 4-6, the Axis player has won. Any other result is a draw. Shake hands.

JR

Perfectly balanced and plays in one turn! This'll make it a regular feature at tournaments for decades to come. :clown:

 

[Bob Miller]

Perfectly balanced and plays in one turn! This'll make it a regular feature at tournaments for decades to come. :clown:

Nah. The fools who are into that Australian Bidding System will screw it up. "I know the dice are loaded so I'll bid on the German side so they will only win on a 1-2" knowing that the dice will roll "1"s most of the time.

 

[Binko]

Only 14 pages of the FB rules apply to the scenarios. The rest is all for the CGs. And, out of those 14 pages, at least 5 pages are taken up by large useful examples.

So how is this significantly different from any other big HASL? Get the Terrain play-aid and the Ammo Shortage play-aid from MMP and just start playing a scenario. At any given time you only have one specific ammo shortage level in play and it's no big deal to remember. In most scenarios you might, at most, have one of the oddball buildings that has some special rules or the elevated railway that is really just a hillock.

I'm baffled by this meme that a couple people seem to be pushing that FB is "too complex". I've played FB scenarios with 5 different players at this point and none of them had any problems at all grasping the ammo shortage and terrain rules. In fact, everybody thought it was all pretty damn cool.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Cellars, I'd say use the VotG or Red Barricades cellars minus them being fortified, the cellar rules in FB are a bit over the top.

I maybe missing something, but it looks to me that the FB Cellars are pretty much the same as the RB/VotG Cellars.

 

[dachda]

Only 14 pages of the FB rules apply to the scenarios. The rest is all for the CGs. And, out of those 14 pages, at least 5 pages are taken up by large useful examples.

So how is this significantly different from any other big HASL? Get the Terrain play-aid and the Ammo Shortage play-aid from MMP and just start playing a scenario. At any given time you only have one specific ammo shortage level in play and it's no big deal to remember. In most scenarios you might, at most, have one of the oddball buildings that has some special rules or the elevated railway that is really just a hillock.

I'm baffled by this meme that a couple people seem to be pushing that FB is "too complex". I've played FB scenarios with 5 different players at this point and none of them had any problems at all grasping the ammo shortage and terrain rules. In fact, everybody thought it was all pretty damn cool.

This has been my experience as well. I consider myself a novice player, and I've had no trouble with any of the scenario rules. Only a handful will apply to any particular scenario and none of them are difficult to understand. The play-aids are fantastic and make understanding easier, and speed up play. I've have not tried the CGs, but I don't understand why some thing FB is somehow too difficult or complicated.

 

[Delirium]

I think for many of us, the strengths of ASL are its variety, flexibility and capacity to capture very different situations.

FB, because of its rules, its map and the OoBs, plays and feels very differently to other HASLs. This is a good thing, in my book. I'm glad Bill took the time to pen some bespoke SRs as I feel they enrich the experience. Hey, it's ASL, what's another 10 pages of rules?

 

[Gunner Scott]

Hi ya-

I think you guys are somewhat off the mark, yes I do understand some people like the amount of detail in FB and thats fine, what I find it tough on the Axis units is the excruciating detail that can potentially derail a good game. IE do we really need rules for every morsel of rice eaten? do we really need rules rules for ever bullet accounted for? And do we really need rules for every drop of petrol consumed? All that does is detract from the game at hand and at least to me, makes playing the Axis not much fun when your weapons are at B#9 and so forth.

All the above could have been handled much more easily with Ammo shortage from the Rules, Low ELR for food shortages and Mechanical Reliability (Red MP's) from chapter D. Now you have a great map and rules that are not chalked full of chrome.

In the end though, play FB how you like it, I'll play it simply and have fun and people can play it with all the chrome they like. Lastly, I do wish Bill did a better squad type for the Russians, he did it for the Axis minor, why not for the Russians? Going into 1945 with the same squad type from 1939 just seems wrong. But it is what it is and thats all it is.


Scott

I think for many of us, the strengths of ASL are its variety, flexibility and capacity to capture very different situations.

FB, because of its rules, its map and the OoBs, plays and feels very differently to other HASLs. This is a good thing, in my book. I'm glad Bill took the time to pen some bespoke SRs as I feel they enrich the experience. Hey, it's ASL, what's another 10 pages of rules?