Shuffling around prisoners during MPh

[WuWei]

One of my guards wants to move on without the prisoners. There are other units nearby, but unfortunately, not in the same location at the beginning of the turn. How would the following situations be resolved:

1. The guard abandons the prisoners in its MPh. Later in the MPh, another one of my squads moves into the location.
2. One of my squads moves into the location with the guard+prisoners. Later in the MPh, the guard moves out of the location, leaving the prisoners behind.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Prisoners can't be Abandoned during the MPh...

A20.5:
"The captor unit becomes the Guard and may only be relieved of that task during any friendly RPh/APh in which the prisoners—if not involved in Melee with the Guard—are either transferred above another guarding unit in the same manner as a SW (4.431) or abandoned."


A20.5 & A20.53 May Prisoners be abandoned
during the MPh? May a broken Guard abandon
its Prisoners during the RtPh?
A. No. No. (Guards may transfer/abandon
Prisoners only during RPh/APh.) [Compil3]

 

[WuWei]

Thank you, so that clears things up a little bit. I somehow thought that they could be "dropped" like SW.
So I abandon them in the RPh. In the MPh, another squad moves in and makes an immediate CC check to recapture.
Do I get the -1 for a capture attempt against an inexperienced unit?
If the attempt fails, can a second squad move in too and try again?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Do I get the -1 for a capture attempt against an inexperienced unit?

Yes, Unarmed units are - per A19.3 considered Inexperienced .

If the attempt fails, can a second squad move in too and try again?

If the attempt fails, then the unit trying to Capture them are locked in Melee, per A20.54:
"If they fail to eliminate or recapture those unarmed units during the MPh, they are considered in Melee thereafter and may move no farther."

Then I am unsure whether another unit could try it....

 

[von Marwitz]

Thank you, so that clears things up a little bit. I somehow thought that they could be "dropped" like SW.

You are thinking of Massacring them as if using a SW. You are a bad, bad man...

von Marwitz

 

[Jon]

Prisoners can't be Abandoned during the MPh...

A20.5:
"The captor unit becomes the Guard and may only be relieved of that task during any friendly RPh/APh in which the prisoners—if not involved in Melee with the Guard—are either transferred above another guarding unit in the same manner as a SW (4.431) or abandoned."


A20.5 & A20.53 May Prisoners be abandoned
during the MPh? May a broken Guard abandon
its Prisoners during the RtPh?
A. No. No. (Guards may transfer/abandon
Prisoners only during RPh/APh.) [Compil3]

Far be it for me to question Klas, but in this instance I believe him and the unofficial Q&A to be incorrect.
The ASOP allows Personnel to drop possession of Prisoners during its MPh.



3.32A .... Personnel may attempt SW/Gun Recovery (A4.44) {Ski-use dr; E4.21} and/or drop possession of SW/Gun(s)/Prisoner(s) (A4.43; A20.53).

Cheers
Jon

 

[EagleIV]

As noted above Prisoners

Far be it for me to question Klas, but in this instance I believe him and the unofficial Q&A to be incorrect.
The ASOP allows Personnel to drop possession of Prisoners during its MPh.



3.32A .... Personnel may attempt SW/Gun Recovery (A4.44) {Ski-use dr; E4.21} and/or drop possession of SW/Gun(s)/Prisoner(s) (A4.43; A20.53).

Cheers
Jon

I agree, prisoners can be abandoned during the MPh, but they become (enemy) unarmed units and are no longer prisoners. However if they are fired upon and someone dies Massacre rules are invoked.

 

[Michael R]

The ASOP can be incorrect as well.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The ASOP can be incorrect as well.

I think it is - A20.53 refers to A20.5 which says "RPh/APh".

 

[Eagle4ty]

The ASOP can be incorrect as well.

The ASOP "IS" part of the rules and informs one of how to play the game. "From the ASOP: "Should the order of given actions in the body of the rules conflict with the ASOP, the latter takes preference." I believe there's ample room to assume that the addition of "Prisoner(s)" in the ASOP Step 3.32A is an addendum to the rules A4.43 & A20.53 which simply explains how it's accomplished (to include during the RPh/APh). There's been more than enough time to simply delete the word "Prisoner(s)" in the ASOP if it didn't pertain to that step in the MPh. From my investigation that statement has existed in the ASOP from ASLRB 1st Edition rules unchanged.

 

[Jon]

I think it is - A20.53 refers to A20.5 which says "RPh/APh".

it depends on how you read and interpret A20.5

A20.5 "The captor unit becomes the guard and may only be relieved of that task during any friendly RPh/APh in which the prisoners ... are either transferred above another guarding unit in nthe same manner as a SW (4.431) or abandoned"

This could be read as two parts ie
1) Prisoners can be transferred to another guarding unit in a friendly RPh/APh [ASOP Steps 1.22B & 7.11A, both steps allowing Transfer of prisoners at these times)
and 2) Prisoners can be abandoned (in a friendly MPh) as per ASOP Step 3.32A)

Also of interest is that the ASOP allows both sides to transfer prisoners in any RPh as per Step 1.22B whereas A20.5 says "friendly Rph", (unless a RPh is played similar to a RtPh where there is player A Rout Phase, followed by player B Rout Phase).

Cheers
Jon

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Maybe it is time for a new QA.

 

[von Marwitz]

This could be read as two parts ie
1) Prisoners can be transferred to another guarding unit in a friendly RPh/APh [ASOP Steps 1.22B & 7.11A, both steps allowing Transfer of prisoners at these times)
and 2) Prisoners can be abandoned (in a friendly MPh) as per ASOP Step 3.32A)

This makes sense to me.

I think the difference is that once Abandoned, you'd have to Capture the Unarmed (free) units again.
Whereas if you Transfer them, they continuously remain under Guard and were not 'free' at any point.

I don't think that you automatically capture Unarmed (free) units by just passing through their Location during the MPh (is that possible in the first place?) or being in their Location (as another unit of the same side which has Abandoned the Prisoners).

However, the Prisoner/Unarmed Unit rules have always been somewhat hazy to me.

von Marwitz

 

[Jon]

Maybe it is time for a new QA.

Or a rewrite of the Prisoner rules to a) make them clearer and b) align with the ASOP

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Or a rewrite of the Prisoner rules to a) make them clearer and b) align with the ASOP

Start be fixing the error in the ASOP perhaps?

A20.53 was added in the 1st Edtion ASOP (revised) - but there was never any errata to A20.5/20.53 - hence why I think the addition to the ASOP was an error, ymmv.

 

[WuWei]

I don't think that you automatically capture Unarmed (free) units by just passing through their Location during the MPh (is that possible in the first place?)

It's not automatic, but you can move into their Location and make an immediate CC attack to recapture them.

 

[von Marwitz]

It's not automatic, but you can move into their Location and make an immediate CC attack to recapture them.

I thought I remembered something in that line, but I have read through the Prisoner Rules twice without finding it.
That does not mean much - I have been blind for the obvious more than once...

In which rule did you find that?

von Marwitz

 

[WuWei]

I thought I remembered something in that line, but I have read through the Prisoner Rules twice without finding it.
That does not mean much - I have been blind for the obvious more than once...

In which rule did you find that?

A20.54: "Unarmed units are not an obstacle to movement, and can be recaptured normally by CC or by any Infantry/Cavalry unit entering their Location and engaging in an immediate CC attack during the MPh."

I remember because I did this the first time three weeks ago.

 

[von Marwitz]

A20.54: "Unarmed units are not an obstacle to movement, and can be recaptured normally by CC or by any Infantry/Cavalry unit entering their Location and engaging in an immediate CC attack during the MPh."

I remember because I did this the first time three weeks ago.

Thanks, mate! The depiction of the Melee counter in the rulebook induced me to think that A20.54 dealed with Melee aspects and not 'recapturing during Movement'... Oh well.

von Marwitz

 

[Jon]

Start be fixing the error in the ASOP perhaps?

A20.53 was added in the 1st Edtion ASOP (revised) - but there was never any errata to A20.5/20.53 - hence why I think the addition to the ASOP was an error, ymmv.

I believe it is more likely that the original unofficial Q&A has been answered in error
Given that a unit may not drop possession of a SW in a Rally Phase [A4.43], I see no reason why they would be allowed to drop possession (ie abandon) prisoners in a Rally Phase.
So IMHO, transfer of Prisoners is allowed in a RPh or APh, abandoning prisoners i allowed in a unit's MPh.

Will happily play by the ASOp unless errata is issued to either the ASOP and/or A20.5

Cheers
Jon