Should Third Party Producers sell scans of their product rather than paper copies?

holdit

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I'd like to see PDF copies n the wargame vault for everything: core scenarios, action packs, the lot. It wouldn't even have to be particularly cheap - available for the release cost of the original would do, but at the moment certain out of print titles are going for hundreds of € and that's before adding postage. Also, money going to the vault is shared with MMP whereas hundreds to someone on eBay nets MMP nothing.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Also, money going to the vault is shared with MMP whereas hundreds to someone on eBay nets MMP nothing.
I know what you are saying .. but actually "hundreds to someone on eBay" does net MMP something.

The liquidity of the ASL products market and the ability for most ASL products to keep their value lower the risk for buyers buying from MMP. That makes buying ASL products an easier decision than otherwise when you know your hard earned dollars won't be as "stuck" as all the other games we have stacked up in our attics.
 

holdit

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I know what you are saying .. but actually "hundreds to someone on eBay" does net MMP something.

The liquidity of the ASL products market and the ability for most ASL products to keep their value lower the risk for buyers buying from MMP. That makes buying ASL products an easier decision than otherwise when you know your hard earned dollars won't be as "stuck" as all the other games we have stacked up in our attics.
But they don't just keep their value - their value is inflated to a rdiculous degree. $400+ for ABTF? How on earth is that supposed to attract people to the hobby?
 

Zakopious

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But they don't just keep their value - their value is inflated to a ridiculous degree. $400+ for ABTF? How on earth is that supposed to attract people to the hobby?
In all hobbies, vintage, rare and out of print items command ridiculous prices.
There is a historical module about Four Bridges undergoing development and playtesting at the present time.
I saw the playtest map for ABTF at Oktoberfest 2021.
This will be a huge module and probably very expensive if it is ever printed.
We can only hope that it will be less than $400.
 

PresterJohn

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Yeah, it's the $400+ stuff on eBay which makes the market for new modules.

But I would love to buy some General magazines on Wargame Vault if the copyright can be managed.
 

hongkongwargamer

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But they don't just keep their value - their value is inflated to a rdiculous degree. $400+ for ABTF? How on earth is that supposed to attract people to the hobby?
The only one of your statements I addressed was

“Also, money going to the vault is shared with MMP whereas hundreds to someone on eBay nets MMP nothing.”


Plus - as others said, the high prices elsewhere attracts people to MMP offers. It makes our buying decisions that much easier. I often tell people “you can buy it now from MMP for that price, or you can buy it from eBay later for 3 times that price.”

On your latest statement …

It bears reminding to not just look at asking prices. Asking prices are just someone’s wishful thinking. Look at transacted prices instead - when someone thinks that price is worth paying. ASL is not attractive because it’s cheap. ASL is attractive because it’s good.

I suspect folks don’t walk into a Lamborghini dealership, point to a price tag and say “How on earth is that supposed to attract people to your car?” :)
 
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holdit

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I suspect folks don’t walk into a Lamborghini dealership, point to a price tag and say “How on earth is that supposed to attract people to your car?” :)
But it's not a Ferrari. When it was in the showroom brand new it was the price of a Ford. I'm not criticising MMP pricing, and I have no objection to paying close to full hard copy price for a PDF version of a released product. It's when I see a price tag that's several multiples of the original that a phrase comes to mind whose initials are FFS.
 

hongkongwargamer

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But it's not a Ferrari. When it was in the showroom brand new it was the price of a Ford. I'm not criticising MMP pricing, and I have no objection to paying close to full hard copy price for a PDF version of a released product. It's when I see a price tag that's several multiples of the original that a phrase comes to mind whose initials are FFS.
So DON'T buy from eBay, people are free to ask for whatever they want, whether you wanna pay what they ask is your decision entirely. That's the whole point.

Evidently there's a market (buyers+sellers) for pricier ASL products, but that doesn't have to be your market, nor mine.

Buying from MMP is always a better call.
 
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holdit

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So DON'T buy from eBay, people are free to ask for whatever they want, whether you wanna pay what they ask is your decision entirely. That's the whole point.
Evidently there's a market (buyers+sellers) for pricier ASL products, but that doesn't have to be your market, nor mine.
Yes I have managed to work that out for myself, but thanks for the sage advice. :rolleyes:

Buying from MMP is always a better call.
Except when a product has been out of print and is likely to be that way for years. Making them available as PDF would be away for MMP to get a nice revenue stream and continue to release hard copies occasionally for those who want them, and gamers could pick up soft coies of the game contents and lets face it, with the eASLRB now available and maps and counters available via VASL, we're really just talking about the scenarios.
 

Vinnie

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But it's not a Ferrari. When it was in the showroom brand new it was the price of a Ford. I'm not criticising MMP pricing, and I have no objection to paying close to full hard copy price for a PDF version of a released product. It's when I see a price tag that's several multiples of the original that a phrase comes to mind whose initials are FFS.
Try buying a Ford Model T now. It's not even close to a Ferrari and huge numbers were produced but you'll pay way over the odds due to rarity.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Yes I have managed to work that out for myself, but thanks for the sage advice. :rolleyes:
The pleasure is all mine!! So glad you managed to work it out. Happy to be of service.

I wouldn't call it "sage advice" really (you are very kind). I am just explaining free market economics to someone in a free society.
 
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von Marwitz

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But they don't just keep their value - their value is inflated to a rdiculous degree. $400+ for ABTF? How on earth is that supposed to attract people to the hobby?
I think these prices are not being paid by people new to the hobby or contemplating to take it up.

Rather, it is the people who are already deeply committed to it (with maybe some random collector or completist thrown in for good measure).

Further, we have to consider, that most (or at least many) ASL players are in their 40's or 50's, thus have advanced in their careers and therefore the chances that they have more money at hand than the college student in the early 20s (or see less need to spend it on alcohol...).

von Marwitz
 

holdit

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Try buying a Ford Model T now. It's not even close to a Ferrari and huge numbers were produced but you'll pay way over the odds due to rarity.
The Model T is over 100 years old. ASL is a tad more recent. Has the car analogy been done to death yet?
 

holdit

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The pleasure is all mine!! So glad you managed to work it out. Happy to be of service.

I wouldn't call it "sage advice" really (you are very kind). I am just explaining free market economics to someone in a free society.
Years coming here, and only today my ignore list gets its first resident.
 

PresterJohn

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Yes I have managed to work that out for myself, but thanks for the sage advice. :rolleyes:



Except when a product has been out of print and is likely to be that way for years. Making them available as PDF would be away for MMP to get a nice revenue stream and continue to release hard copies occasionally for those who want them, and gamers could pick up soft coies of the game contents and lets face it, with the eASLRB now available and maps and counters available via VASL, we're really just talking about the scenarios.
It's a bit pointless making the trite suggestion to just make something available as a PDF with no knowledge of what condition the art work is in. What's the point of a tacky scan of a used copy made with a home scanner. I know that is what you get for some old documents on Wargame Vault, but you're only paying a few dollars and you know what you're getting. I don't see the point of doing that with a twenty something year old module like A Bridge Too Far.

If on the other hand they have the original digital artwork used for printing ABTF and it's in a usable format then it's a brilliant idea, maybe even for a PoD product.
 

holdit

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How odd that some people seem to be unable to respond to this issue without insults or condescenion.

I'd like to see PDF copies n the wargame vault for everything
...is what I said originally. Not "MMP must..". or even "MMP should...". Jesus.

What's the point of a tacky scan of a used copy made with a home scanner.
Not much, which is why I didn't suggest it...I must be posting in some foreign language without realising it. I never said that they should just chuck the stuff onto the nearest flatbed scanner and punch the button. The wargame vault versions are very good squality scans and support text searches, and are already bookmarked for chapters and scenarios, so I very much doubt that MMP used the quick-scan-and-upload approach there.

The boards are for sale in SK format for a reasonable price already - last time I looked it was +/- €250 for a full set which isn't bad at at all. The rules material and Chapter H material already available via PDF, which for VASL players just leaves the scenarios, which could be made available via PDF and sold at a suitable price, and that does not necessarily mean the same low prices as the Annuals and Journals are going for on the Vault (and for which I think MMP could safey have charged double). The boards and counters are a problem to be sure, but the boards can already be bought separately and for those who want the across-the-table experience, MMP would still keep producing the physical copies which would include the counters, which I imagine present the biggest challenge. And the nice boxes too of course.
 

PresterJohn

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Trite - (of a remark or idea) lacking originality or freshness; dull on account of overuse.
"this point may now seem obvious and trite"


It is part of the English language, and appropriate.

Regarding the publishing of a PDF of A Bridge To Far, I don't see how you have addressed the idea of where the artwork for the twenty year old module is going to come from. Does it already exist in an electronic form suitable for publishing as a PDF, if so then great. Happy days. If not, then what would one see in this PDF production? A4 or A3 sized scans of a used map stitched together to remake the original to then take to a print shop for an A1 version of the map to play on. Would that be worth buying? Maybe. Some people like the idea of printing out a map with the hexes a little bit bigger. Counter artwork would also need to be scanned and made printable in some way that did not look too tacky.

I have bought scans of original manuals for other games, and they are okay, but not usually bookmarked or searchable unless somebody wants to run it through OCR and then mark it up. Some of those look quite good but I can imagine the work involved. But then if you have to re-create the module manual, and completely recreate the map artwork, and the counter artwork (some new counter artwork is very nice), then I wonder where the profit would be in letting all that out as a PDF. I'm guessing it would make more sense to sell the boxed hard copy first, to get back your production costs, then think about an electronic version. Those who have actually published (or republished) historical modules would know the real facts of the matter though.
 
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