Should Third Party Producers sell scans of their product rather than paper copies?

Alan Hume

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I must admit I am happy to get Vic's scenarios in PDF but on the whole my collection of scenarios is all paper put away in folders.
I must admit though that I have now run out of space so going forward PDF's could be the answer for me (though I am a bit stuck in the mud as regards paper, I do honestly prefer the paper versions but, as I say, PDF could be the way forward)
 

DVexile

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You can't copy the material then eliminate the originals...
You absolutely can. Please provide a source for your claim that you can’t.

You may be confusing the fact that you can’t copy material for your own use and then resell the original. That’s equivalent to redistribution and thus a violation of copyright. But you may absolutely destroy the original if you wish. I suppose if a publisher wanted to pursue a copyright claim against you not having the original would make it more challenging to show you actually owned the original and didn’t then resell it!

EDIT: An important note with reference to the original topic (PDFs vs paper) is that fair/personal use doctrine can be a confusing gray area. For example, if something is available on the market in both paper and electronic formats it is then questionable as to whether you could purchase the paper copy and then produce your own electronic copy from that. A copyright holder could claim if you want an electronic version you need to buy it from them. Fair use doctrine is often not black and white in the US.
 
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kcole4001

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I'm kind of surprised more TPPs don't go the PDF route.
Possibly the old timers would be resistant to change, but there are a lot more younger gamers in the mix who would be used to the concept.

I'm all for using PDFs for easily home printed materials, but for maps perhaps there isn't a readily available printer within a reasonable distance for all of us.

I don't think anyone in my town has that capability (or inclination) to do one-off jobs like that.
In my case driving for almost an hour each way to the nearest city (even without the currently ridiculous fuel prices) really makes the prospect far less appealing vs buying a printed product.
Of course, if the printer also does lamination one could make the trip worthwhile.
 

daveramsey

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Dave, you do have the original Nor'easter Pack, correct? The second one was published through LFT, so I can't offer that one. If Xavier reports that it has sold out, then I would, but even then, would want to check first to make sure he was not considering a reprint. The original though was PDF from the get-go. Please let me know.
Nope - I don't think it's available for sale on the archive. Here are all of the packs currently available. Happy to get that sorted for you - pm me and we'll make it happen!
 

daveramsey

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Dave - there are probably not enough of us to make all the effort required worthwhile?
Doing it publisher by publisher makes it a little less of a daunting task, and the backend is pretty much there now. Of course, ideally there'd be more than a few dozen subscribers, but I could see it being a staple of the hobby - arguably the go-to way to release scenarios (I could go down the route of arguing for sustainability) - but in reality I still can't get hold of the newer packs for a good few months after release due to various logistics - that's a reasonable driver, for me.
 

daveramsey

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Further questions would arise:
  • Who 'owns' the scenarios?
  • Do you pay for the 'right to use' them, but in the end you personally 'own' nothing in the legal sense (insta-death of the idea for me if the final result is payment without any legal ownership of purchased product just like with a paper original)?
  • Could you download scenario PDFs in such a model?
  • Could you do so without limits?
  • If so, what happens if people pay the subscription for a couple of months, then take their time to download the PDFs of ALL of them?
von Marwitz
Like today, you own the paper that a scenario's printed but you don't own the IP of its content. Agreed, there's a grey area around trading away your paper copy vs a digital version, and of course this is the same for pretty much everything digital.

But, my idea would be that yes, you would download the PDF (username 'stamped' as they are today, from the archive).

The limit question is interesting. Clearly where spotify has me is that I can't easily download a song from spotify, store it and retrieve it as simply as a scenario - so maybe there would have to be a fair-use policy? 3 scenarios a day?!

I don't know - I doubt this idea goes anywhere, I'm just thinking out loud, but it comes from the idea that even if Jim Bishop's excellent article on storage is adopted by everyone, that's a whole heap of scanners/printers and duplicated storage space - not to mention duplicated effort that wouldn't be required.
 

lluis61

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You can't copy the material then eliminate the originals...
You can if you KEEP the originals...
Otherwise, you just copy scenario packs and sell the originals...OH WAIT...that's never been done.

I've printed pages out of the RB online....NO WATERMARK was printed on them.
All you need to do is increase the bottom margin just a tad.
I think that you have two concepts messed here: Your rights as an owner include that, if you had paid for that product, you can do all that is legal with it, and that includes eat those scenarios and keeping them (because that was what you paid). Don't try to imply that to scan scenarios and then dispose of them is equal to scan and then reselling. Two separate and not equal things. And, if you know someone that does that despicable thing (that never had crossed my mind, BTW; perhaps I am in the legal side of this argument) you know what to do: call the police, write to the publisher, get that type denounced. But leave us all the rest that do things properly live our lives, Ok? Since I returned to ASL (about five years) I have spent about $ 10.000 and I never reselled anything. But I gladly given away duplicates for free to fellow ASLrs here in Spain. Really, ¿do you think all who write in this thread are greedy delincuents? Have a little more empathy, man, and don't try to make confusing statements like that your first sentence...
 

Stewart

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I think that you have two concepts messed here: Your rights as an owner include that, if you had paid for that product, you can do all that is legal with it, and that includes eat those scenarios and keeping them (because that was what you paid). Don't try to imply that to scan scenarios and then dispose of them is equal to scan and then reselling. Two separate and not equal things. And, if you know someone that does that despicable thing (that never had crossed my mind, BTW; perhaps I am in the legal side of this argument) you know what to do: call the police, write to the publisher, get that type denounced. But leave us all the rest that do things properly live our lives, Ok? Since I returned to ASL (about five years) I have spent about $ 10.000 and I never reselled anything. But I gladly given away duplicates for free to fellow ASLrs here in Spain. Really, ¿do you think all who write in this thread are greedy delincuents? Have a little more empathy, man, and don't try to make confusing statements like that your first sentence...
Just sayin'
People will get their scenarios.
EVER see an AP for sale with NO BOARDS just the scenarios?
You think the boards were shredded? No, the scenarios were copied and then resold without the boards.
New owner prints out boards from VASL.

We all know this is going on. Don't be so surprised by it.
I own all my shit...that's I all I have to worry about. Not that I ever USE it...but its in a crate somewhere....I don't mind supporting the Publishers, etc.

10k??? How many sets have you purchased or OVERPAID for? wow...I figure mines about 2k.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Ok? Since I returned to ASL (about five years) I have spent about $ 10.000 and I never reselled anything. But I gladly given away duplicates for free to fellow ASLrs here in Spain. Really, ¿do you think all who write in this thread are greedy delincuents? Have a little more empathy, man, and don't try to make confusing statements like that your first sentence...
Yeah man, ASL is expensive outside the States with postage & customs doubling the price. Good of you to give away your duplicate ASL stuff and to grow the community in Spain!
 
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hongkongwargamer

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EVER see an AP for sale with NO BOARDS just the scenarios?
You think the boards were shredded? No, the scenarios were copied and then resold without the boards.
Not necessarily. Boards are often needed in scenarios other than the ones in the same AP pack. Hence they sell the scenarios but keep the board.

.... on the otherhand .. selling board TOGETHER with scenarios is no indication of the contrary either. You can figure that bit out.

We all know this is going on. Don't be so surprised by it.
Definitely surprised at the type of thinking you displayed. This has never crossed my mind. Not with ASL'rs.

I own all my shit...that's I all I have to worry about. Not that I ever USE it...but its in a crate somewhere....I don't mind supporting the Publishers, etc.
I have never heard of any other ASLr questioning another ASLr's integrity. Same goes for you. No need to explain yourself unprompted.

10k??? How many sets have you purchased or OVERPAID for? wow...I figure mines about 2k.
Tax+customs & he gave some of his stuff away to fellow ASL'rs, hence the higher spend.
 
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Paul_RS

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So, the obvious thing to mention here is that there are 16 digital packs available on the archive - mostly from the March Madness set and a few from ESG and Break Contact. I'd love more TPPs to get in touch and sell more through there, and I'm trying to talk to MMP about it, too.

The reality is we all have almost 5 foot of cupboard space taken up by 7 folders worth of scenarios that we've bought - and I've often thought of going down Jim's route of scanning everything but the challenge was how best to search, store and archive these scans. You need a back-up, you need to be able to find scenarios by name, by publisher, by pack name and, ideally, you need access to them when you're at your friend's house, too.

So, of course, the scenario archive (for me) is the answer, but that doesn't help anyone else - unless I'm able to do something amazing. Think Spotify for scenarios. Access to any scenario at any time, and you pay a small monthly fee which goes to the scenario publisher. Hopefully we can get some support for it - I think it's a cool idea, and the platform would work.

Any thoughts?
I raised a question with MMP on the Company Support folder on CSW, many months ago. The latest Armies of Oblivion has a number of updated scenarios that weren't published with the first edition, or second edition. Specifically for the old Partisan module. Printing out the additional scenarios from that pack from a PDF via Wargame Vault seemed like a decent business opportunity. There are probably thousands who bought the 1st and 2nd edition who aren't going to pay around £150 to buy the 3rd edition for the sake of a few updated scenarios
 

lluis61

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The archive does take a small cut, primarily to pay for storage and paypal fees.
The archive has been doing a GREAT service to ASL community, and for free. If it also services PDFs at a reasonable prices for scenario packs of TPP, it's only reasonable that it does not with benefits, but without costing the archive money. Here is a big thanks to you and the people of ASL scenario archive as a hub of all ASLrs, for your time and your work. And, returning to the thread, I'm most anxious that other TPP choose to put their stuff available (for a price) at your site. And I'm thinking of all the scenarios "lost" in time, and particularly those of our aussie friends. Providing that they are the copyright holders of course. But it should be great to see all the historical stuff available at a reasonable price.
 

PresterJohn

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You absolutely can. Please provide a source for your claim that you can’t.

You may be confusing the fact that you can’t copy material for your own use and then resell the original. That’s equivalent to redistribution and thus a violation of copyright. But you may absolutely destroy the original if you wish. I suppose if a publisher wanted to pursue a copyright claim against you not having the original would make it more challenging to show you actually owned the original and didn’t then resell it!

EDIT: An important note with reference to the original topic (PDFs vs paper) is that fair/personal use doctrine can be a confusing gray area. For example, if something is available on the market in both paper and electronic formats it is then questionable as to whether you could purchase the paper copy and then produce your own electronic copy from that. A copyright holder could claim if you want an electronic version you need to buy it from them. Fair use doctrine is often not black and white in the US.
In local law under copyright and "format shifting" it says:
"You must also keep the original work. It is not permitted to make a reproduction and then dispose of the original. If the original copy is sold, traded or given away, then the reproduction must be destroyed. "

Given the high degree of commonality in copyright laws here and internationally I wouldn't be surprised if that is the essentially the same in other Western nations. That may sound like it's just to prevent reselling but disposing does include destroying.
 
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