Should Out-of-Print Scenarios be freely available?

dgdimick

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If someone still has the copyright, why not simply ask them for the right to copy the scenario?

I'm not sure a law that compels entities to publish information is a good idea. What if said work was a defamatory book that I had worked years to get pulled from the shelves? Now, all of a sudden, my critics can put that work back into circulation because it is OOP?
Right now anything you say or write I can re-print, to a point. You write a really bad book I can take and post/publish excerpts from it to show others. I just can't copy the whole book. However the context of this thread is "out of print scenarios". So in that context, lets go back the my first post/comment. If "MMP/AH/and whom ever here", has an out of print item and I have asked them for a copy of it, and been told "sorry OOP". Should the law be changed to allow someone else to provide me a copy?

What if I was someone REALLY rich, like Bill Gates, and I bought the rights to ASL and decided I was going to let it rot since I got spanked one time while playing it? Then the rest of the world is out of luck?

So as you can see all of a sudden anyone with money can now control what you have access to read, or even play.. That to me is a very scary world. (this has been going on in Hollywood for a long time, People going back and buying early "stag" movies thay made before they "hit it big" trying to change the past.)

At least with the internet most people have learned that "information wants to be free", as in out there for people to read, share and talk about. This is one of the reasons that the Gov prevents most large companies from buying all of the radio stations in one area (Clear Channel has gotten around this somehow) and deciding what your going to listen to on the radio.

The point I guess I'm trying to talk about here is: With all of the electronic forms of moving information around, why do we still have to wait for someone to "print" out a document before we can buy it or even read it?

I'm not going to go into the whole "stealing" and what not, face it, there are people out there that would not bother to pay for it if they could get it for free. However, if MMP decided to allow us to buy PDF's of XYZ from them, most of us would spend more money on them. Maybe a few of us would even go as far as to print out the PDF's and have an electronic copy as well as a hard copy. And I think even more of us would buy the electronic copy alond with the printed copy of XYZ.. Why do I say this? Ask yourself how much "copied" ASL stuff is there out in the wild? Not much, sure some one will be kind enough to burn you a copy of a chapter from the RB. But I really don't think your going to find someone that will send you the whole RB.
 

Nat Mallet

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Should the law be changed to allow someone else to provide me a copy?
No. The copyright owner OWNS the work, so he/she gets to do whatever he/she wants with it.

Think of it this way. Let's say I have a pristine 1975 Ferrari on my front yard, just parked there, doing nothing at all, sitting under a tarp. One day, a car enthusiasts finds out about this, and offers me 1,000,000$, far more than what the car is worth, and I refuse.

Should the government step in and make me sell my car? It's my car, shouldn't I be allowed to do whatever I want with it?

Freedom goes both ways. You want the freedom to trade information without restriction, well I want freedom to control my own creations as well, which could mean keeping it for myself.

Then the rest of the world is out of luck?
Pretty much. The statute of limitation on copyright is 70 years after the author's death. If the copyright is bought out, then it's 95 years after first publication or 120 after creation.

So as you can see all of a sudden anyone with money can now control what you have access to read, or even play.. That to me is a very scary world.
It's also quite an exageration. For most material, anyone can have access to it, and if companies believe they can make a profit, they will sell it.

In this case, out of print scenarios, the companies have gone under. It's not as if the companies are willfully holding onto the material just to annoy ASL players. The current copyright owners either can't print more material for whatever reason (no financing) and don't want to release the material in case they can get financing to put it on the market later, or they don't know how valuable their material is.

At least with the internet most people have learned that "information wants to be free", as in out there for people to read, share and talk about. This is one of the reasons that the Gov prevents most large companies from buying all of the radio stations in one area (Clear Channel has gotten around this somehow) and deciding what your going to listen to on the radio.
No, it's to insure that information isn't controlled by one organization. The idea is to get many sources of information, and many point of views, as to keep that information as unbiased as possible.

And I think even more of us would buy the electronic copy alond with the printed copy of XYZ.. Why do I say this? Ask yourself how much "copied" ASL stuff is there out in the wild?
I don't understand your reasoning here. Why exactly would most people buy a hard copy of a product if they already have the PDF version?

But I really don't think your going to find someone that will send you the whole RB.
They don't need to send it to you, they just have to drop one copy on a P2P network, and then the whole planet has access to it. Digital media is ridiculously easy to copy, and once in that format, the owner loose all control over it.

Would an electronic version of the Rule Book mean the death of MMP? Of course not. Many ASL players would purshase it, to support MMP, and because they believe in fairly compensating others for their effort. And most of MMP's material doesn't work all the well in PDF form (the maps and counters, for instance).

Frankly, I'm not sure what the complaining is about. I have binders full of scenarios that I picked up from the various modules I bought, magazines I picked up, downloaded from the internet (they were free for download), etc.

Is there one scenario that is a must have on everyone's list that just can't be found anywhere?

Nat
 

Nat Mallet

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Forgot one:

why do we still have to wait for someone to "print" out a document before we can buy it or even read it?
I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly like some documents printed out. There's really nothing like a scenario printed out on really nice card stock with color. My printer does an OK job, but it's just not like some of the scenario cards I've picked up in the past.

Nat
 

zgrose

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dgdimick said:
The point I guess I'm trying to talk about here is: With all of the electronic forms of moving information around, why do we still have to wait for someone to "print" out a document before we can buy it or even read it?
Basically, because it isn't ours.

As it stands today, intellectual property is just like real property. You can't build your house on someone's "unused" land just because they won't sell it to you and the same applies to intellectual property.

Does it stink, sometimes? Sure, but the system generally works well and protecting the rights of the creator and the rights of the public.
 

Pete AU

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All this being said

The amount of free stuff (that shouldn't be) in circulation via mediums like 'kazaa' it is surprising that no pdf's of asl scenarios have turned up in the shared files of someones computer.

I suppose its only a matter of time, but when it happens someone will have lost the chance to make money from them (the scenarios) and if the music companies seem helpless to stop it happeneing an individual owner of a scenario that 99.9999999% of the world could care less about has zero comeback.
 

amuller

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zgrose said:
dgdimick said:
The point I guess I'm trying to talk about here is: With all of the electronic forms of moving information around, why do we still have to wait for someone to "print" out a document before we can buy it or even read it?
Basically, because it isn't ours.

As it stands today, intellectual property is just like real property. You can't build your house on someone's "unused" land just because they won't sell it to you and the same applies to intellectual property.

Does it stink, sometimes? Sure, but the system generally works well and protecting the rights of the creator and the rights of the public.
Actually this is not quite true. You can, after time, gain rights to another's real property. There are two Common law concepts know as adevrse possession and prescriptive easment which basically state that if you use part or all of another's propety and they have completely abandoned it -- you MAY obtain property rights in it. It is difficult and lenghthy process but it can be done. However I do not believe it applies to a Federal law -- i.e copyright law.

AJ
 

dgdimick

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Admin.. I think your missing the point..

Think of it this way. Let's say I have a pristine 1975 Ferrari on my front yard, just parked there, doing nothing at all, sitting under a tarp. One day, a car enthusiasts finds out about this, and offers me 1,000,000$, far more than what the car is worth, and I refuse.

Should the government step in and make me sell my car? It's my car, shouldn't I be allowed to do whatever I want with it?
If you sell the car you dont have one left. You transfer ownership. If you sell a copy of a book, you still own the copyright. You only allow someone to use that copyright with the copy of the book. There are different laws that cover this. Copyright law would never cover your car. Dont be silly.

Freedom goes both ways. You want the freedom to trade information without restriction, well I want freedom to control my own creations as well, which could mean keeping it for myself.
I have to agree.. But your still not addressing the question here.. This is not about you making something and then me forcing your to sell it to me. It's about your selling something and then people no longer being able to get it when you are gone and no longer able to sell it yourself. Why is this a bad thing?

It's also quite an exageration. For most material, anyone can have access to it, and if companies believe they can make a profit, they will sell it.
Not the case.. How many people know that Bill Gates bought just about everything that DeVinchi wrote? Now BG has decided to "keep" the rest of us from even looking at this. So you say this is right? As for the part of selling it.. If you dont think that there are people out there that want to "re-write" there history (buy up anything "bad" from your past), you need to put down the RB and start to look at the world around you.

No, it's to insure that information isn't controlled by one organization. The idea is to get many sources of information, and many point of views, as to keep that information as unbiased as possible.
Do you REALLY think this? What does this have to do with information wanting to be free? The internet, before Prodigy screwed it up for the rest of us, was about the free exchange of idea's and information. Had nothing to do with your e-mail or web access. Had nothing to do with providing unbiased information. It was all about access to free information. Ever hear of Project Gutenburg? http://www.gutenberg.net

As for the part about you not getting about owning a PDF and the printed copy of something, say the RB.. People that want this usally own a laptop computer that they take just about everywhere with them. Since your going to go somewhere, and drag your laptop along with you, wouldn't it be nice to have a copy of all the RB you own in the laptop? Rather then take the hardcopy, you just bring it up on your laptop. You have heard of "books-on-tape" and "e-books" right? It's the same thing.

As for the P2P, yes I see this has an issue. RIAA is going crazy trying to figure out how they can still make money and meet what the consumer demands. One thing that really hurts RIAA is there lack of understanding of the internet and computers. They still dont understand that it's a simple supply and demand issue. They supply music people want to listen to (they no longer do this IMO) and the users are demanding the music in a format that "fits" into the rest of the electronic world.

As for zgrose, I think your missing the point.. Or I just muddied the water so much you can no longer see it. My question was why do we have to wait for someone to print a paper for us to be able to read it? What if MMP decided that they where going to release a PDF copy of ASLRBv2 and only charge $30.00 for it? There's not really a "real" reason other then people still think in the "old" ways of printing and selling the printed item. Many companies make there total income off of this "new" way, look at TaxAct, and TurboTax (TT dropped the retarded "unlock code" after customers told them to do it) and these are just two of the many companies out there doing this.

As for theft, there really is nothing to stop someone from scanning the RB and giving it away/selling it to others. MMP would be pretty hard pressed to stop it. What prevents this is the people that play ASL are not the same people the are "swapping" music. There probally are some people that are scanning RB's and what not and sharing them, but it's never going to be like the issue RIAA has. Will it ever drive MMP, HOB or anyone else to close up shop? IMO I dont think so. Would they make more money if they sold a PDF versionn, IMO, Yes.. Your costs are way lower and you could push out new product faster.
 

Nat Mallet

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Copyright law would never cover your car. Dont be silly.
Please point out where I said copyright law should cover the sale of cars, because I can't for the life of me figure out how that could be read in what I wrote.

I was trying to make the point that if I own something I can do whatever I want with it, regardless of whether it's a car, piece of property, copyright etc. You stated that you didn't want the government regulating what you're allowed to give away. Well, I don't want the government regulating what I own.

I sound like a two year old (mine! mine! mine!) :)

It's about your selling something and then people no longer being able to get it when you are gone and no longer able to sell it yourself. Why is this a bad thing?
It isn't. But it sounds like you're assuming the copyright owners are doing it just out of spice or disinterest.

The works they own may still have value (i.e. it could be very profitable), but they can't finance production just now. They may be busy working on something else, and get to production later (for example, the rule book).

Maybe they are miserable bastards. Point is, the own the copyright, and that needs to be respected like any other property, just like you'd respect someone else's car, house, etc.

Just because it's easy to copy doesn't mean it should be copied and distributed freely.

How many people know that Bill Gates bought just about everything that DeVinchi wrote?
If very few know about it, then I'm guessing they don't care. Besides, I'd like to know exactly what he's bought. I'm guessing DeVinci has been dead for more than 70 years, so I'm not sure what copyright Bill Gates bought.

Besides, what's stopping Bill Gates from buying every car on the planet? He probably has the cash to buy most car manufacturers and shutdown production, if he'd like. Why would he do something like that?

If you dont think that there are people out there that want to "re-write" there history (buy up anything "bad" from your past), you need to put down the RB and start to look at the world around you.
Name them and provide proof of this please.

Do you REALLY think this?
Yes, I do.

What does this have to do with information wanting to be free?
Nothing. It's about the reason why the government won't allow one company to control all of the radio stations.

Rather then take the hardcopy, you just bring it up on your laptop. You have heard of "books-on-tape" and "e-books" right? It's the same thing.
I think I misquoted you here. You're absolutely right, it would be nice to have an electronic copy, especially something cross-referenced for easy access.

My question was why do you say people would want the Hard Copy if an electronic copy was available? Or did I misunderstand you?

They still dont understand that it's a simple supply and demand issue.
It's so NOT a simple supply and demand issue. The idea behind that economic theory is that price is adjusted based on the level of supply and demand. Because electronic copies are so easy to reproduce, you essentially have unlimited supply. And in economic theory, unlimited supply means near 0 cost.

Even if something is in unlimited supply, you can still make a profit on it by adding value to it. For instance, a better way of delivering it (water is a good example here, although most houses do have running water. Can't get anymore convenient than that :) ).

The problem with music and eBooks is that it's notoriously hard to produce the original copy (even though pop music may be crap and the artists are over paid, it's still hard to make the master copy. You need technicians, CD presses, recording equipment and studios to block out ambient noice, musicians, practice time, etc, etc).

Subsequent copies are easy. Anyone with a PC can make a copy. So how do the authors get compensated for their efforts in the first place?

This is what most folks are missing. They keep saying how cheap it is to copy something that it doesn't make sense to charge 25$ for a CD.

But if anyone can get a free copy, how are we going to get new music/software/books/games/etc?

Nat
 

dgdimick

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Think of it this way. Let's say I have a pristine 1975 Ferrari on my front yard, just parked there, doing nothing at all, sitting under a tarp. One day, a car enthusiasts finds out about this, and offers me 1,000,000$, far more than what the car is worth, and I refuse.

Should the government step in and make me sell my car? It's my car, shouldn't I be allowed to do whatever I want with it?
Call me crazy Nat, but it sure looked to me that you are mixing the issues here. The law we are talking about here is about copyright issues, not you being forced to sell your car. Maybe I misunderstood what you where trying to say. But it sure looked like you missed the point.

was trying to make the point that if I own something I can do whatever I want with it, regardless of whether it's a car, piece of property, copyright etc. You stated that you didn't want the government regulating what you're allowed to give away. Well, I don't want the government regulating what I own.
Maybe your not understanding me.. But to me the issue is, once you sell something and then are no longer in a postion to sell the same thing (dead or the company is dead) should that limit others from being able to enjoy said work? I say no.. No where is there anything said about what you own and what you may own. What the law covers (IANAL) is when there's no one left to sell the item, and others still want the item it would allow others to sell/give away the item. As I understand it, as an example MMP and otheres would not lose their ownership of XYZ just beacuse the decide not to sell XYZ. But if MMP went belly-up and there was no longer a clear "title" or ownership to XYZ, then others would be allowed to publish XYZ. (Would to me be very intresting to see the court case that came out of this)

If very few know about it, then I'm guessing they don't care. Besides, I'd like to know exactly what he's bought. I'm guessing DeVinci has been dead for more than 70 years, so I'm not sure what copyright Bill Gates bought.
I think your missing the point.. I dont't care that BG owns the copyright to anything, what I care about is BG being able to control what information myself and others are able to access. Have you ever seen some of DiVinci's work? Since it's now owned by BG you may never get to see it. Has more to do with controling the free flow of information then "ownership".

Name them and provide proof of this please.
Ok, for one Jane Mansfield, before she made it big, she did a lot of stag films. She later spent a lot of time and money buying the prints for these films and ensuring they would never see the light of day. Gov. Arnold from CA. Before he made it big, made some films that would this day be an issue for him if they came to light. And last be not least, The Mormon church.. Ever heard of the "Salamander Papers"? It only cost what like 3 people there lives?

My question was why do you say people would want the Hard Copy if an electronic copy was available? Or did I misunderstand you?
First off I should say that I should have split this thread into two sections. One for the copyright issues, and the other for the electronic issues. Feel free to do this if you would like.

I myself would want BOTH electronic and hardcopy. I don't take a laptop everywhere, and there are times it's easier to read hardcopy. Sure you would pay more for the pretty printing from MMP and others, but thats where the "added value" of MMP would come in. Have you seen the nice job they did on the ASLSK? Also what if you could just buy the updated counters? Some would probally just buy the electronic RB and be done, after all look at how many play VASL. Do you really need all the counters and what not for VASL? No.

The problem with music and eBooks is that it's notoriously hard to produce the original copy (even though pop music may be crap and the artists are over paid, it's still hard to make the master copy. You need technicians, CD presses, recording equipment and studios to block out ambient noice, musicians, practice time, etc, etc).
Subsequent copies are easy. Anyone with a PC can make a copy. So how do the authors get compensated for their efforts in the first place?

This is what most folks are missing. They keep saying how cheap it is to copy something that it doesn't make sense to charge 25$ for a CD.

But if anyone can get a free copy, how are we going to get new music/software/books/games/etc?
Ok your dead wrong here on the e-books. Music maybe, but that is for another time. Ever heard of a tool called LaTex? Lets anyone typeset a book in about a day. Very easy to use and it's free. (Dont know if you ever went to collage, so sorry if I'm pointing what you already know.)

Most of the cost of a new book is the book tour and getting the word out about the book. Thats not a problem with ASL. Dont think I ever saw a newspaper add for ASLRBv2 or anything from HoB. Much smaller market, lower cost to get the word out.

As for paying the artist, thats a music issue and I really dont care about it. I've already bought all the music I want/need and wont bother to buy more until I see an end to the lame DRM (not able to rip ther song into a format that suits my lifestyle) thats being forced on us. No, I dont do P2P. To me thats copyright infringement and wrong.

But as for S/W, last game I bought was Call of Duty, and before that it was Halflife. Most of the new games out are pretty lame, Also do you really think I'm going to plop down $40+ for a game that I can't play in front of my kids?(GTA3)

But lets get back to how MMP/HoB and others are going to be payed for there effort if they ever do electronic media.

One: They could have a key generated for each copy thats sold. Would have to be real time so they could allow downloads off of the internet. Why bother if you cant get it on-demand?
Two: Like WinXP you could have the RB or add-on "phone-home" as part of an update application. You want the latest update, your going to have to go back to the mothership and get it. It's simple to track IP's and user info this way. (Like you can tell me my IP even now).
Three: You would have people begging to get advanced copies of the RB in the electronic format to read and also help proof read. Think pre-sales.

Oh, and MMP/HoB and others, this is my idea and your free to us it if you want. :D
 

dgdimick

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Should people be allowed to sell (bonus items) on ebay which are copies or altered versions of copywritten materials.

Obviously No, but it happens all the time.
Not sure what you mean, but going to assume that you mean some of the people that sell copied OOP added to there item. Your not going to get me to say this is OK.. I don't think it is. As I responded off forum to one person, this whole debate is not about rather it's right or wrong, but should the law be changed?

I think it should. :D
 

Nat Mallet

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Maybe I misunderstood what you where trying to say. But it sure looked like you missed the point.
You're misunderstanding my point. Forget the car, and focus on ownership. My point is this:

The owner has the right to do whatever he/she wants with whatever he/she owns, whatever the thing being owned is.

No where is there anything said about what you own and what you may own.
What do you mean by this?

What the law covers (IANAL) is when there's no one left to sell the item, and others still want the item it would allow others to sell/give away the item.
This is 100% incorrect. From the US Copyright Office:

As a general rule, for works created after Jan. 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years.

This is the law.

But if MMP went belly-up and there was no longer a clear "title" or ownership to XYZ, then others would be allowed to publish XYZ. (Would to me be very intresting to see the court case that came out of this)
This is also incorrect. Again, from the US Copyright Office:

For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first.

No where does it say that if a company goes under, then it's copyright claims vanish along with it.

I think your missing the point.. I dont't care that BG owns the copyright to anything, what I care about is BG being able to control what information myself and others are able to access. Have you ever seen some of DiVinci's work?
I did get your point, you don't want an individual controlling information, which is something that everyone needs to be very vigilant about protecting.

In your example though, what exactly is Bill Gates controlling? From the copyright laws snippets I posted above, the copyright on DeVinci's (sp?) work is expired, since he's been dead for over 70 years. What copyrights did Bill Gates purchase?

Ok, for one Jane Mansfield, before she made it big, she did a lot of stag films [...]
Interesting examples. But frankly, I can understand their concerns (well, maybe not the Mormon Church one (I haven't heard of the Salamander Papers)). There are a few things I did in my past I'd like to take back too. :)

Ok your dead wrong here on the e-books. Music maybe, but that is for another time. Ever heard of a tool called LaTex? Lets anyone typeset a book in about a day. Very easy to use and it's free.
I've used LaTex, DocBook, troff/groff, and slew of other typesetting tools, and there's no way someone could typeset a book in a day. It took me a full weekend just to get LateX documents into PDF format.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume a novel (300 pages) could be typeset in Latex in a day. What about the research that goes into a book? What about the proofreading and editing? What about the the time to actually write a book? Are you saying all of this is easy to do, and it costs almost nothing?

A book takes months to produce, even for some of the most talented writers on the planet.

One: They could have a key generated for each copy thats sold. Would have to be real time so they could allow downloads off of the internet. Why bother if you cant get it on-demand?
You seem to be very well versed in software. You should then know as well as I that copy protection doesn't work. A talented engineer could reverse engineer a key-protected piece of software in a day or so. Hell, Microsoft couldn't protect XP, how is MMP going to manage that?

Two: Like WinXP you could have the RB or add-on "phone-home" as part of an update application. You want the latest update, your going to have to go back to the mothership and get it. It's simple to track IP's and user info this way. (Like you can tell me my IP even now).
That, my friend, is an excellent idea.

Three: You would have people begging to get advanced copies of the RB in the electronic format to read and also help proof read. Think pre-sales.
That's also a good idea, especially if the pre-sold, evaluation versions would be eligible for the auto update.

Nat
 

dgdimick

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Nat,

Your missing the point of my fist post. Should the law be changed? I'm not debating the current law as to what you can and can not do, I'm saying should we change it. I happen to think we should. The main reason there was a change in the copyright law a few years back was to allow Disney to keep Mickey Mouse in the Disney collection. Walts been dead for a long time.. And the copyright was set to expire. So I say we change this.

First off with LaTex.. The real work is the research and putting it down on paper, but how long does it take to get the product out to the printer? Then you have to deal with all that goes along with dealing with the printer. I'm just saying you STILL print, but sell an eletronic copy before you get to the printing. MMP looks like they could use the money, since there waiting for some "critcal mass" before there going to send the RB out for printing. As I see it any extra money made during the long process would be welcomed.

You seem to be very well versed in software. You should then know as well as I that copy protection doesn't work. A talented engineer could reverse engineer a key-protected piece of software in a day or so. Hell, Microsoft couldn't protect XP, how is MMP going to manage that?
Well for one there's a lot more money to be made by cracking a copy of XP then there ever would be from cracking a copy of XYZ from MMP/HoB.

There where cracked versions of XP in the far-east before the real version shipped. There's a lot of money made over there with this type of activity.

I myself would not do any DRM on the product other then a "watermark" to show owner ship (this copy belongs to Nat). Some C compilers companies use this and do a fairly good job of making money. If you try to remove all theft you end up pissing off your custermers who don't like to be treated this way. Your losses are not going to be that large, more then made up for by the additional sales you'd see.

And with that said, I go back to my comment about people buy both the hardcopy and the electronic copy. It would happen, maybe not everyone, but a lot of people would break down and do it.

But lets look at modules, as I think this is the real money maker. How much is a RB? $50+ and how much do you have to shell out to play? $60+ just to start? When it's all said and done, there's not a lot of reason for MMP to "fast track" the RB re-print. They make much more money off the modules.

So I say break the modules up. Sell the electronic version, the whole module, or just parts that the users want. (counters, rules, scenarios. or maps)

Most people would probally just buy the maps and the electronic version and play VASL, or even maybe the counters with the PDF files.

Your going to do the work anyway, why not make some extra money that you wont see by keeping the module bundled?

That's also a good idea, especially if the pre-sold, evaluation versions would be eligible for the auto update
As I see it the pre-sold electronic ver. would get the upgrade, kind of like you see when you pre-buy TurboTax. But I would also go as far as to start to charge after a year or two for more electronic updates. Would you pay $10-$15 per year to get an update and to ensure that MMP is around next year? I think most people would be willing to also. Think of it like M$ is doing to get you to send them money each year on the option that they MAY come out with an upgrade. (You just don't screw your custermers because you can).
 

Nat Mallet

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Should the law be changed?
In personal opinion, yes, but not to the extent you've proposed in earlier emails.

I'd say copyrighted works should be put into the public domain upon death of the author, instead of 70 years later.

As for corporate copyrights, I'd say 50 years after first publication, or 65 after creation. The end of a company can't be used as the moment it's copyrighted materials can go public, since companies can be bought out by other companies, and the new owners must be allowed to retain the full assets of the company they purchased.

But that's just my naive view of the world.

Well for one there's a lot more money to be made by cracking a copy of XP then there ever would be from cracking a copy of XYZ from MMP/HoB.
True, but some crack programs for the thrill of it.

Nat
 

dgdimick

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I'd say copyrighted works should be put into the public domain upon death of the author, instead of 70 years later.

As for corporate copyrights, I'd say 50 years after first publication, or 65 after creation. The end of a company can't be used as the moment it's copyrighted materials can go public, since companies can be bought out by other companies, and the new owners must be allowed to retain the full assets of the company they purchased.

But that's just my naive view of the world.
I would not call this naive. Everyone forms there own idea's from the world they live in. What may hold true today for you or me may not hold true for us the next day.

The only problem I see with holding a copyright until someones death is the "lost" information while you wait until someone dies. Even the broken USPTO only gives you a patent for what is it 26 years? How would ASL change if that was the case? Whats the date on RBv1? 1985? How would that open the game up if all of a sudden after 26 years anyone could make there own RB? Do you think we would see many changes for the better? Or would we get to the point where we would see so much ASL stuff that it you would not know what was worth owning? (what happens when all the "good" HASL scenarios are produced?)

I myself think that a lifetime can be a long time if we are talking about games.

I think we can both agree that it's a shame that some of the early ASL stuff is no longer around, and it would be great if someone was able to reproduce it without breaking copyright law. Do I think this law will ever pass? Nope.. The General has a better chance of going back into print.
 

jwise

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admin said:
I'd say copyrighted works should be put into the public domain upon death of the author, instead of 70 years later.
And screw their families, eh? If I work my life to build up the value of a company I own, my family benefits from this on my death. If I've worked my life inventing something, my family benefits from my hard work upon my death. But if I write (or paint, or animate, or compose) something -- which can be hard work indeed -- my family should be out in the cold when I pass on?

How does that work?
 

Larry

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It is not so much about screwing families as it is about creating an incentive to create. Someone up in years or suffering from a terminal illness may not have any incentive to create a copyrightable work if it will expire with them.

Copyright will not differentiate between games, books, software, or any other form of expression. The current copyright paradigm is here to stay. While some think that current law was passed as a Mickey Mouse saving act, it had more to do with bringing American law into conformity with European law.

If you don't like the fact that something you want is held up in copyright, buy the rights to the work and publish it yourself. Buy a license for a single copy of the work. Write your Congressman and complain. Complaining about it ... well that does not accomplish anything.
 

Pitman

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Complaining accomplishes more than anything else. It is complaining which motivates people to act, whether to start lobbying for a change in the laws or something else. Perhaps you just don't want people to complain *to you*. That's something else, but hey, it's a free country. Bitching is allowed in the Constitution.
 

Larry

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Complaining does accomplish a great deal when properly focused and doused with a healthy dose of reality. Complaining to get copyright law changed in the EU and USA to get more scenarios freely available ... that ain't gonna happen. :roll:
 

Nat Mallet

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Jwise,

Take it down a notch. My post had nothing to do with screwing anyone's families.

It's my opinion that exceptional works of art and litterature should eventually be freely available, once the original author won't benefit from them any more. That's why I believe copyright should end with the author's life, nothing more, nothing less.

Nat
 
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