Should MMP spend more energies on HASLs or Action Packs?

Bret Hildebran

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do you really think ASL would be dead? I am not certain Hasboro would let that cash cow die.... it may not be a large cash cow for them, but since they do no work, its really free money.....
100% dead? No. It's likely there'd have been a bunch of scenario packs from TPP - presuming Hasbro didn't just blindly try to snuff them all out to preserve copyright. But there'd be no V2 of the rules, no core modules in stock, no central rules authority, likely no (or few) HASLs.

I meant dead as more not a living system. "Mostly dead" is perhaps the better term.

W/o MMP though, there is no free money for Hasbro and there is a lot of work. Plus it's work that they really have limited to no practical expertise in. For what ASL contributes to Hasbro's bottom line, I wouldn't expect them to have invested any time/money into the system.

For reference HAS has revenues of $3.3B and profits of somewhere around $208M (extrapolated off EPS & outstanding shares). For example, VOTG pre-orders, which certainly required a lot of effort, only has $120K of revenues pending. That would be 0.003% of Hasbro's annual revenues. And given Hasbro's cost to develop it their profit would likely be near zero. Hasbro would NOT invest in ASL for love of the game like MMP has been willing to do...
 

RobZagnut

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>This i agree with. Was it really 2 million bucks to buy the rights?

He called me one night and told me that he was going to offer Hasbro 2 million. I told him that he was nuts. I said that he should think about it. Finally, I asked if his wife knew about it.

That was the last that we talked for a while, but I heard that they had worked out another deal. Obviously, only MMP knows the true numbers.
 

Bret Hildebran

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This i agree with. Was it really 2 million bucks to buy the rights?
I believe that's what Curt offered to buy ASL outright from Hasbro. Note that Hasbro didn't sell the rights to ASL though, they only license it to MMP (and it's safe to say the license wasn't $2M although I don't know what it was - Wolkey's says $250K & I presume he is correct).
 

Wik

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You still haven't offered a good reason why they shouldn't. They never told you that if you pre-ordered their product you would get it before anyone else. And everybody at Origins stood in lines, real lines.
Correct, in reference to pre-orders, MMP has only said that they ship pre-orders before shipping to retailers, nothing about in-order-of-reservation,etc. (In fact, I was one of the last pre-orders on AoO, but one of the first shipped due to ordering w/out maps it seems...)
 

Portal

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Looks like I set Wolkey off again. Surprise, surprise. :)

Wolkey,

ASL was doing fine without VASL and would have continued to do fine without it.
Not the story I've seen and heard. ASL was in decline during the Fortenberry period and too many players didn't have any FtF opponents. ASL was loved and appreciated among these scattered players, but they didn't have anyone to play. For these affected players, VASL saved them.

Now, I'm not saying outright that as fact, Kinney was more important than Perry & Co. But for quite a number of ASLers, including me, this is true from our perspective.

Only a celebrity that offered Hasbro 2 million for the rights to ASL could even get his foot in the door. Second, name ONE other company that is going to pay $250,000 for the initial licensing fees?
How do we know this was the only deal Hasbro would ultimately accept? Sure, Schilling & friends came in with the big bucks and keen energy, but would Hasbro really let the ASL IP become worthless?

BTW - I haven't even met MadDog FtF. I don't think he's intervening just because we both happen to be from the same country.
 

RobZagnut

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>Looks like I set Wolkey off again. Surprise, surprise.

Because you keep getting it all wrong and you spread misinformation on your incorrect assumptions.


>Not the story I've seen and heard. ASL was in decline during the Fortenberry period and too many players didn't have any FtF opponents. ASL was loved and appreciated among these scattered players, but they didn't have anyone to play. For these affected players, VASL saved them.

Again wrong. You heard, but weren't actually there. Again more rumors and you 'heard' wrong. ASL was in decline, because Fortenbery was doing a poor job. Once MMP took over at AH for Fort things got back on track. Many players didn't have ftf opponents, that's why many of them were playing by email on GEnie. I was one of them. That's how I learned to play ASL and where I found my first ASL opponents, who became friends. Which is why I stated that the Internet is more important than VASL.

VASL didn't just magically appear and save the day. If MMP through tremendous effort and money hadn't laid the ground work, reprinted the core modules, reprinted the rulebook, kept Perry Sez (Nut Mail) going then Rodney wouldn't even had started working on VASL in the first place, because there wouldn't have been enough interest.


>How do we know this was the only deal Hasbro would ultimately accept?

You still haven't answered my first question. Who else is there to offer Hasbro this deal? You keep on saying there is this phantom entity out there that would make an offer to Hasbro. You're basing another statement on a false assumption. Quite a pattern you've got going. Again, who is it?

I'll wait for your answer.
 

Portal

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Wolkey,

What you call "misinformation" is your own refusal / inability to read and understand the posts you have in front of you.

Again wrong. You heard, but weren't actually there.
I was playing the ASL game and I'm sharing my experience of the decline I was experiencing first-hand.

Again more rumors and you 'heard' wrong. ASL was in decline, because Fortenbery was doing a poor job.
Fortenberry may have been the contributor to the decline, but the aftermath was fewer players. This is where VASL came in and became so valuable.

If MMP through tremendous effort and money hadn't laid the ground work, reprinted the core modules, reprinted the rulebook, kept Perry Sez (Nut Mail) going then Rodney wouldn't even had started working on VASL in the first place, because there wouldn't have been enough interest.
Where's the proof? From every interview I've read with Rodney, he started the VASL project because many players had a hard time accessing a method to actually play the game. It wasn't because Perry & Co. inspired him to greatness. The VASL project started before all the MMP reprints etc.

Now I'm not here to champion "Kinney is the greatest person" ever, but I am here to champion my belief that MMP is not the greatest saviour of all saviours for ASL.

Who else is there to offer Hasbro this deal? You keep on saying there is this phantom entity out there that would make an offer to Hasbro. You're basing another statement on a false assumption. Quite a pattern you've got going. Again, who is it?
Any other wargaming company out there, both today and in the future. Yes, they don't have millions of bucks, but like I posted before, would Hasbro be willing to just sit on the ASL IP and not let it do anything?
 

wrongway149

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Any other wargaming company out there, both today and in the future. Yes, they don't have millions of bucks, but like I posted before, would Hasbro be willing to just sit on the ASL IP and not let it do anything?
Nah, they would've reissued 'Tank Command" as 'Advanced Squad Leader from Avalon Hill':kotz:
 

Portal

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But "Tank Command" is so much more catchy.

How many kiddies want to play this weird thing called "Advanced Squad Leader"? Geeky or what? :D
 

MadDog_CDN

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Looks like I set Wolkey off again. Surprise, surprise. :)

Wolkey,

BTW - I haven't even met MadDog FtF. I don't think he's intervening just because we both happen to be from the same country.
You are right.

I am just tired of the "OSDS" groups elitist attitude on this board.

Wolkey has a package arriving late and he is on this board, slamming MMP and threatening to not do business with them anymore, what a load of horse......! He does this all in public, rather than call them and allow them to make things right. Then he claims you are anti-MMP, right, and I have golden feces.

Dudes got big problems.

I have been vocal about some MMP actions, but they have said they are trying to fix things, good enough for me, let's wait for the results and see how it goes.

As for this thread, useless, totally useless, what good are HASL's and Action Packs if your market does not have the core modules to play them?
 

RobZagnut

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>Any other wargaming company out there, both today and in the future.

Like who? Couldn't be The Gamers. MMP saved them. GMT had been working on a string. Columbia switched to P500 to make more money. It had to be someone with knowledge of ASL, so it had to be someone within the ASL community. There was no one else.

You're grasping at straws. There is and hasn't been ANY OTHER company that could pay the amount of money that Hasbro ask for.
 

RobZagnut

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>Wolkey has a package arriving late and he is on this board, slamming MMP and threatening to not do business with them anymore, what a load of horse......! He does this all in public, rather than call them and allow them to make things right.

Huh? You've got me confused with someone else. What late package? Where do I slam MMP? All where in public?

What the HELL are you talking about?


>As for this thread, useless, totally useless, what good are HASL's and Action Packs if your market does not have the core modules to play them?

Exactly. Portal should get on his knees and thank MMP for reprinting the core modules Beyond Valor (twice), Doomed Battalions and Hollow Legions. Then for printing the core module Armies of Obilvion. Without the 5000+ reprints of Beyond Valor and the new Rulebook we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Good call.
 
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Michael Dorosh

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>Wolkey has a package arriving late and he is on this board, slamming MMP and threatening to not do business with them anymore, what a load of horse......! He does this all in public, rather than call them and allow them to make things right.

Huh? You've got me confused with someone else. What late package? Where do I slam MMP? All where in public?

What the HELL are you talking about?


>As for this thread, useless, totally useless, what good are HASL's and Action Packs if your market does not have the core modules to play them?

Exactly. Portal should get on his knees and thank MMP for reprinting the core modules Beyond Valor (twice), Doomed Battalions and Hollow Legions. Then for printing the core module Armies of Obilvion. Without the 5000+ reprints of Beyond Valor and the new Rulebook we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Good call.

They weren't simply reprints, either, but repackaging and in the case of the rulebook a significant revision. The mapboards as well have undergone revision, due to the controversial new format, but that's neither here nor there.

I'd still prefer not to take sides, but it's hard to imagine any other company investing the time to do what MMP has done, given the dire state of wargaming in 1998 or so. Bear in mind that has changed since then - the number of titles since 2000 is kind of staggering, especially in the tactical realm - not just because CH et al are flooding the market with ASL clones, but take a look at Panzer Grenadier also. I see GD '42 (also by MMP) is up for preorder, and a "new" Panzerblitz has been discussed (possibly vaporware on the same order as Up Front v.2). It is easy to look on all this through a current lens, but in 1998 my feeling is the market was very different - ASL was probably a much bigger risk than it would be today now that all you nutcases have proven how big a P# can go and how fast (VOTG anyone?) :)

I'd have to agree with Robert that MMP's achievements have been considerable, viewed from the lens of a fellow garage businessman. I can't honestly imagine them sitting around thinking of ways to screw with the client base. I do think Portal has concerns that deserve to be aired - whether or not they are legitimate, I'm not an insider. Robert apparently feels they are not legitimate. I'm not sure the conversation can progress any further than that.

My question in all sincerity, though, is whether it is really worth trying to establish that "fact" one way or another. Regardless of what the outcome of that debate is - what would it change?

The problem may be one of perception - MMP's own actions have changed the market - because of its own success, it can do today what it couldn't have done 9 years ago. The market has shown itself willing to exercise patience - for the most part. That minority which feels it is being abused can be safely ignored.
 
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'Ol Fezziwig

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Jazz sayeth:
I do think that VASL is a strong 2nd with the SKs a close third. I guess I would class VASL to be the penultimate realization of ASL on the Internet.
methinks the intinerent intellectual needs to borrow Nikons' dictionary...(gris gris me, will 'ya?)
 
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Jazz

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Jazz sayeth:


methinks the intinerent intellectual needs to borrow Nikons' dictionary...(gris gris me, will 'ya?)
Wow...didn't know I got that close to a nerve....I do believe I at least had the civility (NOT one of my strong suits, as I'm sure many will agree) to bring it to your attention in a PM...or do I mis-remember?
 

Darrell Andersen

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Even Wolkey has standards...

"OSDS"?? Wassat?

I google that and I get "Oregon Sheep Dog Society". The Sheep Dog part I believe but even Wolkey won't go to Oregon
 

Gunner

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Wolkey has a package arriving late and he is on this board, slamming MMP and threatening to not do business with them anymore, what a load of horse......! He does this all in public, rather than call them and allow them to make things right. Then he claims you are anti-MMP, right, and I have golden feces.
In Wolkey's defense I think it was a problem he was having with his HOB order not MMP.

Gunner
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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Wow...didn't know I got that close to a nerve....I do believe I at least had the civility (NOT one of my strong suits, as I'm sure many will agree) to bring it to your attention in a PM...or do I mis-remember?
Yes, you did, however, I feel like crap today so my manners are shot.
 
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