Shellholes and COT

Kijug

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The movement chart says for Fully Tracked to go through a shell hole is COT. So that got me thinking. If a shell hole is on a brush hex, does that brush hex cost 2 MP for a Fully Tracked AFV?

In other words, are shellholes an addition to the current terrain, or replace the terrain and become OG shellholes? I’m guessing the former.

Then, if a big HE occurs in woods, could there be woods/shell hole hex? I guess it seems possible? :rolleyes:
 

Wayne

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COT means, simply, Cost of Terrain of the hex.

Re shellholes in a Brush hex, Fully Tracked cost is 2R (i.e., the COT for Brush)

As Eagle4ty notes below, placement of a Shellholes-chit on a brush hex obliterates the Brush (per J11 errata).
If that terrain change makes the hex OG w/Shellholes, then
Re a Shellholes-chit placed on a (former) Brush hex, Fully Tracked cost is maybe 1 (i.e., the common COT for Open Ground)

Re woods, shellholes cannot occur during play.
eASLRB said:
B2.1 Shellholes are represented by brown splotch marks with a dark brown core. 2U6 is an example of a shellhole. Shellholes can be created to a maximum of one per hex during play by placing a shellhole counter in Open Ground, orchard, brush, or grainfield immediately after any Original KIA result during a PFPh/DFPh resolution of a Concentrated HE FFE (or aerial bomb/rocket) attack of ≥ 150mm. Such placement removes all entrenchment counters in that hex (although not necessarily their contents) even if the hex was already a shellhole hex; the in-hex terrain (and any Flame/Blaze already in it) is considered to no longer exist at all. Shellholes occur only IN a Depression—not at its Crest level.
 
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Wayne

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eASLRB said:
G2.6 SHELLHOLES: Shellholes can occur in jungle, in which case the jungle terrain (and any Flame/Blaze already in it) is considered to no longer exist at all.
[...because ASL jungles are a fragile ecosystem]
 
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Eagle4ty

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If placed the COT would be 1MP (OG) and 1 or 2 MF depending upon how one entered it. Per B2.1 "...the in-hex terrain (and any Flame/Blaze already in it) is considered to no longer exist at allJ11."
 

Kijug

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OK, cool. Which brings me back to my original thought. Why didn’t the movement chart just say 1 MP for Tracked Vehicles instead of COT (and other columns). I guess it is technically correct, but confusing as it implies other terrain may exist, but as you pointed out, B2.1, “…the in-hex terrain…is considered to no longer exist at all.” So shellholes are just shellholes…that’s the terrain…period.

So now you have to consider shellholes on roads. Is it still a road or just a shellhole? Does that, therefore, impact Road Bonus MF and related road-movement? Seems like it would.

Thanks!
 

Eagle4ty

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OK, cool. Which brings me back to my original thought. Why didn’t the movement chart just say 1 MP for Tracked Vehicles instead of COT (and other columns). I guess it is technically correct, but confusing as it implies other terrain may exist, but as you pointed out, B2.1, “…the in-hex terrain…is considered to no longer exist at all.” So shellholes are just shellholes…that’s the terrain…period.

So now you have to consider shellholes on roads. Is it still a road or just a shellhole? Does that, therefore, impact Road Bonus MF and related road-movement? Seems like it would.

Thanks!
Most of the rule was written prior to the J11 Errata. IIRC there was a "Perry Says" that brought about the change in J11.
 

Wayne

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OK, cool. Which brings me back to my original thought. Why didn’t the movement chart just say 1 MP for Tracked Vehicles instead of COT (and other columns). I guess it is technically correct, but confusing as it implies other terrain may exist, but as you pointed out, B2.1, “…the in-hex terrain…is considered to no longer exist at all.” So shellholes are just shellholes…that’s the terrain…period.
Not necessarily -- you can have Shellholes on a Slope or in a Gully, say, in which cases COT would not be 1 MP.
So now you have to consider shellholes on roads. Is it still a road or just a shellhole?
Given that the "in-hex [Road] terrain…is considered to no longer exist at all," I think you have your answer.

For Fully Tracked,
Road Rate up to the Shellholes,
COT into the Shellholes hex,
COT out of the Shellholes hex (even if back onto the Shellholes-severed road),
then Road Rate (if now again applicable) from there on, say.

EX: CE Fully Tracked move from 3N4 to 3S2:
23382
 

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klasmalmstrom

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So now you have to consider shellholes on roads. Is it still a road or just a shellhole?
The errata to B2.1 (in Journal 11) never intended to remove roads...I wouldn't be surprised if there will be errata to that effect...
 

Wayne

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The errata to B2.1 (in Journal 11) never intended to remove roads...I wouldn't be surprised if there will be errata to that effect...
[I'd be surprised. Even fully tracked, kinda tough IRL to do rated speed through road construction, let alone a cratered road.

Maybe not a removed Road, but not an effective one, either. In a design-for-effect game, effectively removed, game-wise, IMO. Shrug.]
23384
 

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klasmalmstrom

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How is a printed road+shellhole combo treated wrt movement for vehicles?
 

Doug Leslie

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How is a printed road+shellhole combo treated wrt movement for vehicles?
There is the following Q&A. I don't know whether this preceded the change to the wording of B2.1, but it supports the view that, at least at some point, it was the view that roads and shellholes could co-exist in the same hex. It seems illogical if a road can survive in a printed shellhole hex but not one that is created during play.

"B2.1, D8.23, & E3.6
For printed shellholes does the in-hex terrain exist? If the road still exists and was a paved road, and E3.6 Mud was in effect, would the shellhole hexes be Open Ground per E3.65with the possibility of E3.61/D8.23 Vehicle Bog?

A. Roads in printed shellholes still exist, and if paved would not suffer Mud penalties."
 
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klasmalmstrom

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It seems illogical if a road can survive in a printed shellhole hex but not one that is created during play.
I agree - hence is why I think we'll see errata to that Journal 11 errata, to clarify that the road is still there...
 

Wayne

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eASLRB said:
B2.1 Shellholes are represented by brown splotch marks with a dark brown core. 2U6 is an example of a shellhole. Shellholes can be created to a maximum of one per hex during play by placing a shellhole counter in Open Ground, orchard, brush, or grainfield immediately after any Original KIA result during a PFPh/DFPh resolution of a Concentrated HE FFE (or aerial bomb/rocket) attack of ≥ 150mm. Such placement removes all entrenchment counters in that hex (although not necessarily their contents) even if the hex was already a shellhole hex; the in-hex terrain (and any Flame/Blaze already in it) is considered to no longer exist at all. Shellholes occur only IN a Depression—not at its Crest level.
The supposition that Board 3 Roads in Shellholes hexes exist has implicit rules support in higher-numbered B3.43 -- re Infantry, anyway.

Re vehicles, it's not supported by rules save by Q&A, AFAICS.

Whether or not they should, gameboard visuals don't trump rules as writ,.

Other Q&A supports text-over-appearance supremacy.

An EX: of a text-trumps-appearance Q&A:
23397

23398
(...which begs the seperate Q, can a vehicle move from the water-level Pontoon to P4 at the B3.41 2MP elevation-change Road rate? I'm guessing Yes, but IDK.)

[As now writ, a tracked vehicle going visually over the rails onto a pontoon bridge is allowed by Q&A.

As suggested, a vehicle should also be allowed some erratum-specified use of cratered Roads despite elimination of said Roads per B2.1 penultimate sentence highlighted above.

{Maybe w/a Road Rate +1MP per splotch, the latter maybe makes sense. Or maybe at COT rate (as now writ) but w/Mud, Bog affects exceptions. Or, for simplicity, maybe rescind that Q&A and call printed Road art though printed Shellholes just art (except as per B3.43)}]

All this said, I'm okay w/sane errata for sake of art-congruence when consistent and systemically complete. At the moment, it's not, and all a bit of a head-ache, IMO.
 
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