SF: Rubble or Building hexside question

carlsson

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Is the hexside 2I18/2J18 Rubble or building?
Example: Can a unit at (hypothetical) level 1 in 2J19 see to level 0 in 2I17, or is the building blocking LOS?

I am quite sure the building is only there for artistic purposes, hence there should be LOS in the above example. But there may be some Manila rules I am missing...

24201
 

Old Noob

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JMO, that looks more like Debris than Rubble.
 

Eagle4ty

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Rubble is Inherent terrain, thus there should be LOS.
(See the example in B24.2 for a similar example)
Rubble at ground level would not block a LOS from a unit in a hypothetical Level 1 in 2J19 as per the OP, however the building depiction would.
 

Bill Kohler

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If the 2J18 rubble were a counter and not printed on the map, then a LOS from level 1 in 2J19 to level 0 in 2I17 would be clear because the building wouldn't be visible on both sides of the LOS string.

The problem here is that a non-rubbled portion of the building is visible in 2J18.
Now for the rules (which, IMO, are written from the perspective of placing a rubble counter on a geoboard building):
--B24.1 A rubbled Location is no longer a building Location and a building totally reduced to rubble is no longer considered a building [EXC: for Rubble Clearance purposes; 24.71].
--B24.2 Ground level rubble is a Half-Level LOS obstacle through the entire hex (including hexsides but without negating any hedge/wall).
--The SF rules (after a cursory check) don't seem to remark much on printed rubble (except to say to ignore small bits of rubble artwork that extend beyond the hexside).

So we're left with a conundrum, and this is where IMO the ASL world diverges into two camps:
--the first camp will hold to the strict letter of the rules and say the LOS is open.
--the other camp (which I usually side with), says always read the rules with a smidge of circumspection. This camp might argue that the artwork appears to purposefully indicate a blocked LOS--otherwise why not have drawn the jagged building symbol so that it goes up to but not over the hexside?

If you have a player in one camp playing a player in the other camp, as usual roll a die or discuss it before the game begins. (I think this particular kind of LOS would only become a problem if one player assumes a certain interpretation and plays accordingly, and the other player sees it differently. A preemptive mini-discussion is the easiest way to avoid conflict in this our game of conflict.)
 
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grabowbe

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I vote Blocked.
From the example in B24.2:
However, a unit at ground level in H3 could not be seen from I2 because the rubble is a Half-Level Obstacle and, even though the LOS is traced exactly along a hexside, the H2
rubble and I3 building form a continuous obstacle (albeit of varying height) across that hexside.
 

Faded 8-1

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If the 2J18 rubble were a counter and not printed on the map, then a LOS from level 1 in 2J19 to level 0 in 2I17 would be clear because the building wouldn't be visible on both sides of the LOS string.
Not sure how you are figuring that. It pretty clearly IS visible on both sides of the string.

I think it's blocked due to the building. I don't see how the rubble has anything to do with it.
 

Bill Kohler

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Not sure how you are figuring that. It pretty clearly IS visible on both sides of the string.

I think it's blocked due to the building. I don't see how the rubble has anything to do with it.
If the entire 2I18 building were drawn intact on the map, and hex 2J18 were rubbled during play (and marked with a rubble counter), then the hypothetical LOS in question would be open, per the rules.

As the building is depicted on the map, though, I fully agree that the depiction will appear on both sides of our hypothetical LOS string. (And that is how I would rule--a blocked LOS--since the building appears to have been intentionally drawn to be that way, which is the only reason that I can imagine for any portion of the still standing building to be shown in 2J18.)
 

Paul John

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B.1 SYMBOLOGY: For aesthetic purposes, terrain symbology may extend
marginally out of a hex into an adjacent hex of another type, but most hexes
are dominated by one specific terrain type and are governed by the rules for
that specific terrain type
. Usually, the dominant terrain type includes the hex
center dot, but occasionally building hexes have a hex center dot in Open
Ground; an Open Ground hex center dot never changes a hex containing a
building to an Open Ground hex. In some cases a hex will contain more than
one terrain type with neither dominant over the other, in which case the terrain
effects of both types are cumulative.

Just sayin
 

Bill Kohler

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Thank you for the quote, but IMO B.1 isn't relevant here. We're not discussing whether 2J18 is a building hex: it's a rubble hex--I think most posters agree on that. The issue is whether the building depiction that juts a little bit into 2J18 blocks LOS.

In normal ASL play, if the depiction of the still-standing portion of the building in 2I18 only reached three-quarters of the way across hex 2I18, then it wouldn't block high-elevation LOS in that last quarter of 2I18 where the building is drawn as being collapsed.

So by a parallel argument, I would say that the depiction of the still-standing building that juts partway into 2J18 is meant to block LOS there.

I.e., it's the building depiction itself that blocks LOS.

--------------------

A6.1 CHECKING LOS: The ability of a unit to “see” and “fire directly” at another unit in a different hex is dependent on having a LOS between those units. Whether a unit has a LOS to a given hex is usually determined by stretching a sewing thread taut between the center of the firing hex and the center of the target hex. If the thread does not cross a terrain depiction capable of obstructing the LOS between the target and firing hexes (with the obstruction visible on both sides of the thread) [EXC: Inherent Terrain hexes (B.6) block or hinder LOS if traced exactly along their hexside even though the terrain depiction is not visible on both sides of the thread], there is a clear LOS between the two hexes. If players still cannot agree whether a LOS is blocked or not, the matter is resolved by a dr: 1-3 LOS is not blocked; 4-6 it is blocked. It is usually (but not always; see B.6 & B9.1) the terrain depiction which can potentially block or hinder LOS—not the hex containing that terrain type.

A6.2 OBSTACLES: Each terrain type [EXC: Depressions 6.3] is defined as to whether or not it presents an obstacle or Hindrance to LOS and, if an obstacle, the height of that obstacle. LOS extends into or out of obstacles, but not through them into hexes beyond the obstacle except in certain cases wherein the target/firer are at an elevation ≥ the height of the obstacle or are adjacent to a hexside obstacle. The terrain in a firer’s hex never blocks LOS traced from its hex center dot, although it may block LOS traced from a vertex of its hex across the interior of its own hex.
 
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Paul John

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Of course it's a rubble hex. My point with B.1 is that the artwork often extends only for aesthetic purposes and here, that interpretation means it wouldn't negate the inherent nature of rubble, your LOS would be clear.
Honestly, since the artist chose to add it over the line, it may well have been intended to block, but the rules seem to me to indicate that it's clear. I would happily agree to play it either way.
 
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