There is a tank in motion in front of a German bunker withing LOS. This is not a hindrance until after the AFph. Now, it is the German Prep Fire phase. It is STILL a +1 hindrance; AFV owners First/Final Fire phase. STILL a +1 hindrance? I have a lot riding on this answer (a whole six pack of beer!).
Settle a bet for me about motion vehicles...
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Jacometti
Elder Member
You lost your bet man.
A motion vehicle is never hindrance. D9.4
A motion vehicle is never hindrance. D9.4
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jrv
Forum Guru
A vehicle/wreck that has moved/was in motion and *is now Stopped* is a hindrance "during all phases following the AFPh" [D9.4]. A vehicle/wreck that is in Motion is never a hindrance.
JR
JR
Pyth
Senior Member
#1
An enemy AFV moves in front of a German bunker and ends its Mph without stopping. A motion counter is placed on the vehicle. A vehicle with a motion counter on it is not a hindrance in any phase. I think that's the situation you were describing. Let's stay with that AFV a bit longer...
It keeps that motion counter until the beginning of it's next Mph, at which point it loses the motion counter -- for the duration of its Mph -- to this point I feel like I'm on steady ground but right here I get a little confused. What is the target status of this AFV if it begins it's Mph non-stopped and does not enter a new hex during that Mph or stop... does it get case J if subjected to DFF during its Mph (spent delaying)? is it entitled to keep it's motion status at the end of the phase?
The other case your question might have referred to is when the AFV moves in front of German Bunker and stops. Now it is a moving target until the end of the AFPh. It is not a hindrance until after the AFph... at which point it becomes: {*edit. I orginally said stopped, that's not quite right...} not moving. A hindrance/ & a tem for friendlies.
Hope I got that right. I know I'll be corrected if I didn't.
(I'm trying to figure out what is being asked, and have a follow on question of my own)
An enemy AFV moves in front of a German bunker and ends its Mph without stopping. A motion counter is placed on the vehicle. A vehicle with a motion counter on it is not a hindrance in any phase. I think that's the situation you were describing. Let's stay with that AFV a bit longer...
It keeps that motion counter until the beginning of it's next Mph, at which point it loses the motion counter -- for the duration of its Mph -- to this point I feel like I'm on steady ground but right here I get a little confused. What is the target status of this AFV if it begins it's Mph non-stopped and does not enter a new hex during that Mph or stop... does it get case J if subjected to DFF during its Mph (spent delaying)? is it entitled to keep it's motion status at the end of the phase?
The other case your question might have referred to is when the AFV moves in front of German Bunker and stops. Now it is a moving target until the end of the AFPh. It is not a hindrance until after the AFph... at which point it becomes: {*edit. I orginally said stopped, that's not quite right...} not moving. A hindrance/ & a tem for friendlies.
Hope I got that right. I know I'll be corrected if I didn't.
You provided, I think it was to me, an excellent summary of the various motion and movement statuses and which of these states can co-exist -- I wonder if you would replicate it here. It succinctly parsed the interactions of -- when is a vehicle moving? in motion? stopped? or non-stopped? .
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Vinnie
See Dummies in the index
You can't delay unless you are stopped.
Assuming that you start the movement phase in motion and then wiggle back and forth to remain in motion,
.1 CASE J; MOVING/MOTION VEHICULAR TARGET:
Ordnance firing at a Dashing target (A4.63), or at a vehicle which has entered a new hex or used VBM (D2.3) during that Player Turn, or is/was in Motion status during that Player Turn, must add the +2 DRM of Case J to its To Hit DR
You started the turn in motion, you are non stopped and are moving so case J applies even though you did not enter a new hex.
Assuming that you start the movement phase in motion and then wiggle back and forth to remain in motion,
.1 CASE J; MOVING/MOTION VEHICULAR TARGET:
Ordnance firing at a Dashing target (A4.63), or at a vehicle which has entered a new hex or used VBM (D2.3) during that Player Turn, or is/was in Motion status during that Player Turn, must add the +2 DRM of Case J to its To Hit DR
You started the turn in motion, you are non stopped and are moving so case J applies even though you did not enter a new hex.
Pyth
Senior Member
Ok. Case J is clear enough... but if you can't delay what the hell do you call it? Where do the MPs go? There's no wiggling back and forth expenditure. The MP's have to go somewhere! I think you can delay without being stopped.
Jeff Sewall
Member
Delay MP can only be expended while stopped or using platoon movement (D2.17). So the AFV has to change VCA back and forth (wiggle) until all MP are expended or it has to stop, delay to MP-1, then start again. If the AFV happens to be in bypass, the wiggle option is out.
Pyth
Senior Member
Good god. There IS wiggle expenditure!? I was sure Vinnie was wrong... but, again, it was me (no one gasps)... -- I've been playing this wrong, and a whole lot of my opponents have been playing this wrong. So when I want to delay while moving and don't want to stop and restart (my crappy transmission) I'm supposed to wiggle my AFV rather than just say, delaying for 3 MP, or whatever? Wow that is news to me.
Jeff Sewall
Member
The other technique that helps here is to use extra MP to enter a hex. So if you know that you're moving to a hex where you want to finish your MPh in motion, just declare all remaining MP when you move to the hex. However, that doesn't help in the specific case where the AFV wants to remain in motion in the hex it starts its MPh.
Jacometti
Elder Member
No need to wiggle anything and change your CA. Just enter the hex at more then minimum MP. This is not termed Delay, of course. So you just enter open ground for 12 MP.
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You also can change the vehicle's VCA right and left in the hex until it has spent all its MP. That is, if you forgot to announce that it spent all its MP entering the hex and if you don't mind to look slightly stupid.
peterd1973
Member
Can you spend more MP turning the VCA? I would think you could, it just means the AFV is turning slowly.
Philippe D.
Elder Member
The rule that allows overspending is D2.18, and it only mentions entering a new hex - so unless some other rule allows overspending for some other purpose, it's limited to entering a hex. Wiggling your CA is very fine, but it won't let you spend an odd amount of MP and keep your CA in the end.
The other way of not spending your entire MP allotment, IIRC, is to have some hex in your VCA whose entry has a higher cost than the remainng MP. "I'd like to enter this woods hex, but I don't have enough MP left, so I'll remain in Motion here [and, first thing in my next MPh, enter the Open Ground hex instead]".
The other way of not spending your entire MP allotment, IIRC, is to have some hex in your VCA whose entry has a higher cost than the remainng MP. "I'd like to enter this woods hex, but I don't have enough MP left, so I'll remain in Motion here [and, first thing in my next MPh, enter the Open Ground hex instead]".
klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
No.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
If you 'wiggle' you might end up pointing to the wrong direction or present an unfavorable armor facing to the enemy.
The better way to handle your MPs is to announce more than required upon entry of a hex to burn them (i.e. announce 5 MP when you enter an OG hex that costs only 1 MP). You should burn extra MP upon entry of a hex in a place where you are out of LOS / in least danger of the opponent seeing you to put the maximum of Case J1 and J2 penalties on him (for seeing you only only a limited number of MP).
Because this might require some extra calculations, it can be annoying and slow play somewhat. That's why some people seem to ignore the rule and just play as if delaying while non-stopped were allowed.
Many people won't call you on it or are not even aware of it. Others will call you on it to force you to stop thus making you easier to hit (Point Blank might kick in) or more vulnerable in CC, force extra Mechanical Reliability rolls on you or make sD usage, more precisely the effects of its failure to roll the sD number, more of a pain because in the latter case you end up with a (planned for) MP expenditure unspent and thus a problem on how to spend it.
von Marwitz
Vinnie
See Dummies in the index
The extra spend to enter a hex is not possible if you are not wanting to enter s new hex, thus the "wiggle" i mentioned.
You also cannot spend extra when already in a hex (e.g.. going round a hex in bypass).
You can waste MP and remain in motion by trying to enter a hex you don't have the mp for. Move into a hex with less than half up remaining and then declare an attempt to enter a stone building without half your MP you can't do this so you remain in the hex in motion. Next turn, there is no need tonactially enter that building.
You also cannot spend extra when already in a hex (e.g.. going round a hex in bypass).
You can waste MP and remain in motion by trying to enter a hex you don't have the mp for. Move into a hex with less than half up remaining and then declare an attempt to enter a stone building without half your MP you can't do this so you remain in the hex in motion. Next turn, there is no need tonactially enter that building.
jrv
Forum Guru
Even when moving down the same road, in most situations vehicles are assumed to be moving separately and at different times, and the "freeze-frame" effect of game turns doesn't really reflect reality. Per E11.4, "A Convoy vehicle (not Column) does create a LOS hindrance if it would be subject to TH Case J were it fired on by any ordnance at that moment." For things that the game considers true convoys, reality rules.
JR
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Well, announcing that you will spend all your remaining MP to enter an hex before entering it (the legal way) and announcing that you do it once you entered the hex so as to remain in Motion (which is not legal) are not light years apart.
I would not mind that my opponent chooses the second way - as long as no particular event occurred between the hex entry and the all MP expense declaration.
Of course, if you need to declare less MP than all the remaining ones (e.g. so as to change CA in the hex being entered) things are more tricky.
I would not mind that my opponent chooses the second way - as long as no particular event occurred between the hex entry and the all MP expense declaration.
Of course, if you need to declare less MP than all the remaining ones (e.g. so as to change CA in the hex being entered) things are more tricky.