Setting vehicles up concealed in bypass

Pacman Ghost

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OB-given ? can be used to conceal units at setup, if they are in concealment terrain.

I want to set a vehicle up bypassing a building, and given that a vehicle using bypass is considered to be in the hex being bypassed (i.e. a building hex), does that mean I can set it up concealed (even though it would appear to be in open ground)?
 

Honosbinda

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Good question.

First of all, stationary bypass is only allowed as a result of stopping during the movement phase. I've looked and can't find a rule permitting vehicular setup in bypass.

In addition to that, given that the opponent is allowed to check for clearance using the (haha) method of holding a unit counter vertically, one can't assume that bypass movement would be permitted to have allowed entry to the position in the first place (even though it may be obvious, there is no rule that states 'players can setup in obviously clear bypass locations').

I've looked for some errata on this, and can't find anything permitting setup in bypass. Therefore, I think the rule for stationary bypass is applicable D2.34

Which is interesting because I know I've setup in bypass and allowed opponents to do so, it seems like it would be a good/obvious idea. So I might have missed something, I didn't do comprehensive research, just looked in the most likely places for this information.

To your question, the rules specify placing ? counter 'in' concealment terrain at setup. For obvious reasons, bypass CAFP can't be in concealment terrain unless, for example, the odd case there is inherent terrain, like orchards, in the same location as a bypassable obstacle. The bypass unit does not 'appear' to be in open ground, it IS in open ground.

2.34 STATIONARY BYPASS: Unlike Infantry, a vehicle may voluntarily end its MPh using Bypass. It remains straddled across the hexside last traversed, with the CAFP defining its position within the hex, its VCA, and its vehicular Target Facing. Its ability to change its VCA is limited as per
 

Eagle4ty

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Good question.

First of all, stationary bypass is only allowed as a result of stopping during the movement phase. I've looked and can't find a rule permitting vehicular setup in bypass.

In addition to that, given that the opponent is allowed to check for clearance using the (haha) method of holding a unit counter vertically, one can't assume that bypass movement would be permitted to have allowed entry to the position in the first place (even though it may be obvious, there is no rule that states 'players can setup in obviously clear bypass locations').

I've looked for some errata on this, and can't find anything permitting setup in bypass. Therefore, I think the rule for stationary bypass is applicable D2.34

Which is interesting because I know I've setup in bypass and allowed opponents to do so, it seems like it would be a good/obvious idea. So I might have missed something, I didn't do comprehensive research, just looked in the most likely places for this information.

To your question, the rules specify placing ? counter 'in' concealment terrain at setup. For obvious reasons, bypass CAFP can't be in concealment terrain unless, for example, the odd case there is inherent terrain, like orchards, in the same location as a bypassable obstacle. The bypass unit does not 'appear' to be in open ground, it IS in open ground.

2.34 STATIONARY BYPASS: Unlike Infantry, a vehicle may voluntarily end its MPh using Bypass. It remains straddled across the hexside last traversed, with the CAFP defining its position within the hex, its VCA, and its vehicular Target Facing. Its ability to change its VCA is limited as per
Well A2.9 kind of answers it in a backhand kind of way when it states "A unit/weaponJ8 may not set up overstacked or in a hex it could not enter during the normal course of play, ...", which is almost opposite of what is normally stated in rules of that which is allowed. However, by implication and articles published in the ASL Journal it is pretty much agreed that vehicles can set up in terrain that they can enter during play (including bypass).
 

Pacman Ghost

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Therefore, I think the rule for stationary bypass is applicable D2.34
I don't quite see your reasoning. D2.34 seems to suggest that setting up in bypass is allowed. If a vehicle is able to move through, or end its MPh, in bypass, then it would seem reasonable that it can also set up in bypass, unless there is some rule explicitly preventing it, which I couldn't find either. This thread also suggests the same. Eagle4ty's post above also concurs.

The bypass unit does not 'appear' to be in open ground, it IS in open ground.
I don't think that's correct. For example, FFMO applies to infantry bypassing a building, but they aren't in Open Ground, because there's no new Location. Bypassing units are considered to be in the hex containing the thing being bypassed, e.g. a building, ergo a vehicle can set up concealed. This wouldn't be the first time bypass creates odd outcomes like this :)
 

Honosbinda

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Well A2.9 kind of answers it in a backhand kind of way when it states "A unit/weaponJ8 may not set up overstacked or in a hex it could not enter during the normal course of play, ...", which is almost opposite of what is normally stated in rules of that which is allowed. However, by implication and articles published in the ASL Journal it is pretty much agreed that vehicles can set up in terrain that they can enter during play (including bypass).
I don't quite see your reasoning. D2.34 seems to suggest that setting up in bypass is allowed. If a vehicle is able to move through, or end its MPh, in bypass, then it would seem reasonable that it can set up in bypass, unless there is some rule explicitly preventing it, which I couldn't find either. This thread also suggests the same. Eagle4ty's post above also concurs.


I don't think that's correct. For example, FFMO applies to infantry bypassing a building, but they aren't in Open Ground, because there's no new Location. Bypassing units are considered to be in the hex containing the thing being bypassed, e.g. a building, ergo a vehicle can set up concealed. This wouldn't be the first time bypass creates odd outcomes like this :)
FFMO (First Fire Movement in Open Ground

hello!? This modifier is precisely applied because the unit is considered to be in open ground. Bypass isn't creating an odd outcome, your mind is :) Unless you are really trying to convince me that FFMo applies but not because they are in open ground, but in bypass. In which case, it would be FFMB, not FFMO.

What's more important is being allowed to setup there in the first place, I'd say.

As for Eagle's answer, and as for the reference to the other thread, neither of these point to rules specifically allowing setup in bypass. You can't read rules by 'what they suggest' and use that as an argument to support the position. D2.34 does no such thing. Eagle's argument is stronger A2.2 tells us nothing other than recording coordinates.

We need better justification that A2.2 and A2.9 for being clear about setting up in bypass, imo. But let's say it's okay, there is no support for allowing such units to be concealed other than it would be convenient for someone to get that as the defender while the tank barrel is sticking out right there plain as day!
 
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Pacman Ghost

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What's more important is being allowed to setup there in the first place, I'd say.
I think it's clear that this is OK. Eagle4ty quoted A2.9:
A unit/weaponJ8 may not set up overstacked or in a hex it could not enter during the normal course of play, ...
which implies that units can set up in a hex in which it could enter during normal course of play, which is what one would expect.

But my understanding of bypass is the same as Phillippe's in the other thread:
it has been clearly established that when bypassing a hex, you are considered to be in that hex.
There is no new Open Ground mini-Location created, you are in the building hex. I guess the reasoning is that you don't necessarily have to literally be inside a building to get some protection from it e.g. if you're jammed up against an outside wall, that will still help against incoming fire.
 

Honosbinda

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Well A2.9 kind of answers it in a backhand kind of way when it states "A unit/weaponJ8 may not set up overstacked or in a hex it could not enter during the normal course of play, ...", which is almost opposite of what is normally stated in rules of that which is allowed. However, by implication and articles published in the ASL Journal it is pretty much agreed that vehicles can set up in terrain that they can enter during play (including bypass).
Yes, backhandedly indeed. I'm not convinced; too bad bypass isn't mentioned as well as HD setup in this rule.

Bypass setup is a specific case that deserves mention I think, but many may not be a skeptical as me. I suppose once revealed the opponent could challenge that the vehicles could never have made it and thence have it removed from the game.

It doesn't matter what is pretty much agreed upon because there's an article in journals. I'll agree with the rulebook and/or errata.
 

Honosbinda

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I think it's clear that this is OK. Eagle4ty quoted A2.9:

which implies that units can set up in a hex in which it could enter during normal course of play, which is what one would expect.

But my understanding of bypass is the same as Phillippe's in the other thread:

There is no new Open Ground mini-Location created, you are in the building hex. I guess the reasoning is that you don't necessarily have to literally be in a building to get some protection from it e.g. if you're jammed up against an outside wall, that will still help against incoming fire.
No, it's not clear, and it's not clear just because Eagle says so! Rule A2.9 was drafted in ancient times, obviously, before most other rules were written. That's why setup in bypass can only be inferred.

Nor does what Phillippe said carry any authority.

If you were to cite a Perry Sez or the rule book, that would be more convincing, wouldn't you agree?

But as I said, let's concede that point and address your question as if it were legal to setup there.

The tank is obviously not in the building and therefore is going to be easily visible to units with LOS to the CAFP. Not concealed.

I suppose next you are going to maintain that the vehicle should be allowed to maintain concealment because it is in the building hex, even if it is actually at the CAFP?

Doesn't the fact that FFMO is applied mean that units in bypass are basically in the open, even if not in an actual open ground hex?

Since were are dealing in implications when it suits you, but not when it doesn't, it's impossible to consider this logically with you, isn't it?

Make a more convincing case, I'm not on board with your notion about concealing setup units in bypass because of a trick of the rules.
 

klasmalmstrom

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D2.38 (IMO) seems to (at least) suggest/say/imply that a vehicle in Bypass is not in Concealment Terrain (even if the hex itself is Concealment Terrain). YMMV.

2.38 TEM: A vehicle in Bypass is in the Open Ground portion of the hex and is therefore not entitled to any beneficial TEM for the woods or building it is Bypassing [EXC: Residual FP (A8.2); also, in certain hexes (e.g., 2I9 or 3I1) a vehicle can be in Bypass of a building but still be in woods].
 

Pacman Ghost

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D2.38 (IMO) seems to (at least) suggest/say/imply that a vehicle in Bypass is not in Concealment Terrain (even if the hex itself is Concealment Terrain).
Cool, thanks for that.

So, is my understanding that "a unit bypassing a hex is considered to be in that hex" wrong? I can't remember where or how I got that idea, but Philippe seems to think the same, so the idea seems to be floating around.

I'm trying to get a better understanding of how bypass works, and in particular, where exactly the unit is considered to be, since it has implications for entry and setup. I'm sure there's no new Location created on the hexside, so where exactly is it?
 

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Doesn't the fact that FFMO is applied mean that units in bypass are basically in the open, even if not in an actual open ground hex?
However, if an infantry unit bypasses an obstacle with Residual FP, the FFMO DOESN'T apply. Instead you use FFNAM and the TEM of the obstacle bypassed.

Damn Klas, I just read your post after my post.
 

Robin Reeve

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There is a difference between being in a given hex and in a terrain.
This also applies with a Pillbox, for an example - or to a rooftop Location.
 

klasmalmstrom

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So, is my understanding that "a unit bypassing a hex is considered to be in that hex" wrong? I can't remember where or how I got that idea, but Philippe seems to think the same, so the idea seems to be floating around.
The unit bypassing is still considered to be in the hex. I just don't think it's in Concealment Terrain, even if the hex itself is Concealment Terrain.

A parallel can be "sort of" drawn to a woods-road, where the rules (A12.2) say:
"A vehicle that sets up in a woods-road (or orchard-/brush-/grain- road) hex is considered to be in Concealment Terrain for the purposes of placing OB-designated “?” (12.12) and of using SSR-allowed HIP—but thereafter it is considered to be on the road (B13.31) and thus in Open Ground to a clear LOS traced to it along the road."

There the vehicle is clearly in a hex that's Concealment Terrain, but once a LOS to it is gain along the road, it loses "?"- so then it's not considered to be in Concealment Terrain. I think the concepts - while not identical - are (at least) similar.
 

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There is a difference between being in a given hex and in a terrain.
This also applies with a Pillbox, for an example - or to a rooftop Location.
I believe what he is implying is that at ground level there is still only one Location (hex was probably a poor choice as is its usage in A12.2). In the case of a Pillbox there are two separate Locations to consider & thus a poor choice for comparison unlike the ground level of building in a hex and the ground level of the hex itself. However, I do agree with your annotation of "Terrain" that is in the hex/Location and which is specifically mentioned in A12.12 "...but only in Terrain listed in red in the Terrain Chart/Desert Terrain Chart/PTO Terrain Chart." :)
 

Robin Reeve

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If the terrain of the unit i bypass is brush, it is concealment terrain.
If open ground it isn't.
 

Eagle4ty

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If the terrain of the unit i bypass is brush, it is concealment terrain.
If open ground it isn't.
I would think the only other terrain it could be IN to bypass is Woods or a Building while bypassing the other respectively. A4.3 clearly states "Bypass cannot be used to skirt the edges of any other terrain feature..." and since the small portion of Brush artwork in a Woods hex does not exist (as there's no such terrain feature as a Brush-Woods hex or else preclude bypass of the woods at all), the unit would be in the OG portion of the hex regardless of its placement in the Brush terrain depicted along the that hexside.
 

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I would think the only other terrain it could be IN to bypass is Woods or a Building while bypassing the other respectively. A4.3 clearly states "Bypass cannot be used to skirt the edges of any other terrain feature..." and since the small portion of Brush artwork in a Woods hex does not exist (as there's no such terrain feature as a Brush-Woods hex or else preclude bypass of the woods at all), the unit would be in the OG portion of the hex regardless of its placement in the Brush terrain depicted along the that hexside.
The small portion of brush that extends into another hex such as woods, does still exist. It is just not the dominant terrain feature. See B .1 Symbology and the example. The brush extending into the woods hex still creates a Hindrance.

Seth
 

Eagle4ty

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The small portion of brush that extends into another hex such as woods, does still exist. It is just not the dominant terrain feature. See B .1 Symbology and the example. The brush extending into the woods hex still creates a Hindrance.

Seth
Guess we can bypass other terrain features afterall even if the rules imply we can't.:unsure:;)
 

Robin Reeve

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I would think the only other terrain it could be IN to bypass is Woods or a Building while bypassing the other respectively. A4.3 clearly states "Bypass cannot be used to skirt the edges of any other terrain feature..." and since the small portion of Brush artwork in a Woods hex does not exist (as there's no such terrain feature as a Brush-Woods hex or else preclude bypass of the woods at all), the unit would be in the OG portion of the hex regardless of its placement in the Brush terrain depicted along the that hexside.
The bypass MP costs depend on the terrain skirting the obstacle (the "non-obstacle terrain") which clearly exists after D2.3.
So, for an example, bypassing a Woods obstacle, it can happen that the terrain of the part of the hex where bypass occurs is brush.

D2.3 : ... The MP cost of VBM is double that of the hex's non-obstacle terrain (usually Open Ground) per hexside traversed
 
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