Setting up Spotted Mortars

johnl

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The answer to this is not clear to me from reading A12.34 and C9.3 or anything else for that matter, including my tea leaves.:rolleyes:

Can a spotter set up hidden if the mortar (Gun) sets up hidden?
 

Eagle4ty

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He is not set up HIP simply because the Mortar(s) are, but may be so if otherwise allowed to be.

NOTE: However, if concealed (including HIP) he would not lose such status should he spot for the mortars, even if the mortars were subsequently forced to be revealed.
 

johnl

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He is not set up HIP simply because the Mortar(s) are, but may be so if otherwise allowed to be.

NOTE: However, if concealed (including HIP) he would not lose such status should he spot for the mortars, even if the mortars were subsequently forced to be revealed.
ah, yes. I see spotting is an EXC to the "any other action" in the concealment table. Thanks.
 

Justiciar

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SIDE BAR: Wasn't there awhile back a thread about whether or not* (and not is how I recall the rule/ASOP??) having it that a Spotter could not* be designated prior to play/recorded...but only after play began?...

Sub-tangent...perhaps it was about also having HIP MMC/SMC and whether it* could be recorded as such at set up...

I am not good at search past threads...so forgive my apparent lack of due diligence in helping my own post. I get a -minus grade, I know.
 

Justiciar

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B/c it's at ASOP 2.22A and not in pre-game Sequence???

And while "spotting" is an EXC..."designating" could be construed as "any other action"...loss of ?/HIP.
 

von Marwitz

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Per C9.3

......the Spotter must be predesignated by the owning player during his PFPh/DFPh and marked with an appropriate fire counter for having used a SW during that phase.


However, I have never played it that a Spotter actually needed to be marked with a counter.

And some Q&A for your question:

"... the Spotter must be predesignated by the owning player during his PFPh/DFPh ..." May a Spotter be predesignated during setup? If yes, when must this predesignation be declared?

A. Counting DFF as part of the DFPh for this exercise, the Spotter may be recorded anytime prior to the start of the firing phase, with that designation becoming effective at the start of the firing phase. {4}


And:


C9 – Spotted Fire. The rules state that a spotter is designated during the owning player’s Prep/Defensive Fire Phases. They also state that a HIP unit can spot, but must be "recorded" as such. Can the designation of a spotter take place during setup? (I assume yes, because of the comments about a HIP unit being "recorded" as the spotter.)

A. Yes; counting DFF as part of the DFPh for this exercise, the Spotter may be recorded anytime prior to the start of the firing phase, with that designation becoming effective at the start of the firing phase.

When a spotter dies/breaks/is captured the rules state that you must wait "until the start of the owner’s MPh following such a loss of the original Spotter". Since you must designate during Prep/Defensive Fire, this effectively means you must wait till the player turn following the owner’s next MPh. Is this correct?

A. No; see ASOP step 3.11A. {4}

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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A spotter may be designated during PFPh & DFPh if that MTR did not have an existing spotter. A MTR may be assigned a new spotter when its old spotter is eliminated, broken or captured in the next friendly MPh. It's one of those asymmetries that confound players.

Although one could make the case that the rules do not exclude being designated as a spotter as a concealment loss activity, the most likely practical result of making that case would be to annoy Perry. Perhaps a worthy goal, but I'm not seeing it. One might also make the semantic case that the spotter is not performing an action, but is being acted on rather like being pinned by a stuka is not an activity, while taking a PTC is.

JR
 

Justiciar

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A spotter may be designated during PFPh & DFPh if that MTR did not have an existing spotter. A MTR may be assigned a new spotter when its old spotter is eliminated, broken or captured in the next friendly MPh. It's one of those asymmetries that confound players.

Although one could make the case that the rules do not exclude being designated as a spotter as a concealment loss activity, the most likely practical result of making that case would be to annoy Perry. Perhaps a worthy goal, but I'm not seeing it. One might also make the semantic case that the spotter is not performing an action, but is being acted on rather like being pinned by a stuka is not an activity, while taking a PTC is.

JR
Agree on your first para.

1)That is my point about the rules to the clause about Perry....
2) Like you* have never annoyed Perry? Really? I would be just following well trodden ground...and not your hooves alone.
3) Spotting is a verb...being a Spotter as a noun is like being a 'striker' ... you would be sent to play for the 4th Division ASAP. Nice try. It is an any other...barring the EXC already known.
 
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Juzek

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Agree on your first para.

1)That is my point about the rules to the clause about Perry....
2) Like you* have never annoyed Perry? Really? I would be just following well trodden ground...and not your hooves alone.
3) Spotting is a verb...being a Spotter as a noun is line being a 'striker' ... you would be sent to play for the 4th Division ASAP. Nice try. It is an any other...barring the EXC already known.
Just marveling at this exchange between Von Marwitz, JRV, and Justiciar. Not quite grasping it, but its an honor to read it. I think the result is that the Spotter is not HIP, but after the sidebars and grammatical analysis, who cares? Besides, who doesn't love a reference to the ASOP?
 

Koestler

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Being designated as spotter does not bestow hip-status, so much is clear. However, in a situation that one uses a unit which otherwise uses hip (e.g. SSR granted; Japanese) as spotter, there is a problem if one plays strictly by the rules. Being designated or acting as spotter does not cause concealment loss and therefore no loss of hip. However, under a strict rules application, acting as a spotter requires placement of a prep/dff counter on the unit, which is impossible with a hip unit. (The problem does not arise under the practice of dispensing with the placement of the fire counter.) Have I missed anything?
AK
 

von Marwitz

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I don't know if is per se 'impossible' to place a Prep/DFF counter on a HIP unit.
But of course, it defeats the purpose of HIP and partly also of the Spotter.

Might be a candidate for a Perry Sez, though I would be loath to see the answer confirming the letter of the rule, which would be probable after all.

One of the typical situations in which I use Spotted fire is the following:

Keep the MTR out of enemy LOS and thus protected from enemy fire. Have a concealed or even HIP unit spot.

Contrary to the letter of the rule I have so far played it, that neither the HIP Spotter nor the HIP MTR using spotted fire were marked with a Prep/DFF counter. Thus me or the opponent did not know where the fire was coming from at all.

Usually, the terrain will narrow down the area from where the fire can originate pretty much. But if you have some dominating hills with Concealment terrain on Crestlines with good LOS, it might get difficult to guess.

I think (even this way of playing is / should turn out to be illegal) it can pretty well represent situations in which units simply can't tell, from where they are under fire.


That said, it would be interesting to know, how it is generally handled by others. Am I the only one playing it this way?
What say you?

von Marwitz
 

hongkongwargamer

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I don’t place info counters on my hip units

Or you can say you HIP’d those info counters on those HIP’d units.
 

Eagle4ty

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Sometimes I place a fire marker on my HIP units off board under a concealment counter just as a reminder. However, this is usually in a larger scenario. I do not place fire markers on board as they are white counters and are informational and memory aid counters anyway (A.12). I believe the rule is there to give some indication of how to handle most situations, not as an absolute (akin to using CC counters for infantry that advance into a CC situation at the end of their APh). Heck, I've even seen many players not put fire counters on units during the DFPh or AFPh when they fired, especially in small scenarios. YMMV
 

Justiciar

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Per C9.3

......the Spotter must be predesignated by the owning player during his PFPh/DFPh and marked with an appropriate fire counter for having used a SW during that phase.


However, I have never played it that a Spotter actually needed to be marked with a counter.

And some Q&A for your question:

"... the Spotter must be predesignated by the owning player during his PFPh/DFPh ..." May a Spotter be predesignated during setup? If yes, when must this predesignation be declared?

A. Counting DFF as part of the DFPh for this exercise, the Spotter may be recorded anytime prior to the start of the firing phase, with that designation becoming effective at the start of the firing phase. {4}


And:


C9 – Spotted Fire. The rules state that a spotter is designated during the owning player’s Prep/Defensive Fire Phases. They also state that a HIP unit can spot, but must be "recorded" as such. Can the designation of a spotter take place during setup? (I assume yes, because of the comments about a HIP unit being "recorded" as the spotter.)

A. Yes; counting DFF as part of the DFPh for this exercise, the Spotter may be recorded anytime prior to the start of the firing phase, with that designation becoming effective at the start of the firing phase.

When a spotter dies/breaks/is captured the rules state that you must wait "until the start of the owner’s MPh following such a loss of the original Spotter". Since you must designate during Prep/Defensive Fire, this effectively means you must wait till the player turn following the owner’s next MPh. Is this correct?

A. No; see ASOP step 3.11A. {4}

von Marwitz
The first "A." of your post answers it well enough for me. Thank you.
 
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