BraveDave
Member
If the only MF you expend during your MPh is to announce a search, i.e. you do not move from your present hex, does the search occur before DFF or after?
Searching
- Thread starter BraveDave
- Start date
You have to have spent that MF for DFF to occur, so DFF occurs after the search.
BraveDave
Member
Makes sense. Thanks.
Eagle4ty
Forum Guru
Not too sure of A_T_Great's answer. As per A12.152...provided that all units making the attempt are neither Pinned nor using Assault Movement. Now since being Pinned or broken disallows any movement in the first place, to intimate that a previously Pinned unit is disallowed to search is just plain stupid not to mention redundant and an insult to even basic rules knowledge on the unit's ability to move in the first place. Therefore being Pinned in the act of Searching or broken by fire after expending a Search MF but prior to initiating the Search results thus negating the Search can be the only reasonable assumption one can make from the rules presentation. If the attack was one that was initiated by RFP however, by rule (A8.22 Bullet 2) that action would be accomplished first • Residual FP does not attack until any activity that a MF/MP expenditure allowed is completed (e.g., placing SMOKE grenades, SW Recovery, Searching, firing a Smoke Dispenser, etc.) [EXC: entering a vehicle; (un)hooking; D5.43].
Vinnie
See Dummies in the index
The language is odd in that section.
As each Good Order Infantry/Cavalry MMC, or moving stack that contains ≥ one MMC, ends its move it may attempt to reveal concealed enemy units (/Minefields; 12.33) in Accessible hexes (including its own) by expending one additional MF in its present hex and making a Search dr, provided that all units making the attempt are neither Pinned nor using Assault Movement.
How do you both end your move AND spend an additional mf?
As each Good Order Infantry/Cavalry MMC, or moving stack that contains ≥ one MMC, ends its move it may attempt to reveal concealed enemy units (/Minefields; 12.33) in Accessible hexes (including its own) by expending one additional MF in its present hex and making a Search dr, provided that all units making the attempt are neither Pinned nor using Assault Movement.
How do you both end your move AND spend an additional mf?
klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
My guess it is written like that since the Search is the last thing you do and it takes place in the ASOP in a sub-step to 3.4 END of ITS MPh.
As why "pinned" is mentioned - this isn't the first place in the rules the wording is a bit akward or there are superfluous words inserted. I doubt the addition of "pinned" is meant to be a subtle way to say DFF takes place before the actual search. Had that been the intention I am of the opinion it would have been spelled out explicitly.
Eagle4ty
Forum Guru
However, in Step 3.36D is where one conducts Defensive Fire vs moving units (e.g. before Step 3.41A). Are you stating that searching units cannot be fired upon as a moving unit because Searching is completed in Step 3.41A or are you stating that a Pin/Break result effected in Step 3.36D, though occurring prior to the implementation of the action of searching noted in Step 3.41A has no bearing on that function and the steps are just thrown in there in no particular order in this instance?
klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
The ASOP makes it clear the MF spent to Search can draw defensive first fire:
3.41A Non-Bypassing Good Order Infantry/Cavalry may Search (A12.152; E1.95/1.953; G1.63) {Casualties; A12.154}; becomes TI—Defensive First/Subsequent First/FPF allowed.
I think the usage of "pinned" in the search rule is just superfluous (i.e., it has not subtle meaning), ymmv - it wouldn't be the first place in the rulebook.
3.41A Non-Bypassing Good Order Infantry/Cavalry may Search (A12.152; E1.95/1.953; G1.63) {Casualties; A12.154}; becomes TI—Defensive First/Subsequent First/FPF allowed.
I think the usage of "pinned" in the search rule is just superfluous (i.e., it has not subtle meaning), ymmv - it wouldn't be the first place in the rulebook.
Searching specifies spending "an additional MF" which implies it is coupled with another expenditure.
i.e. open ground 1MF + 1MF to search upon declaring the MF expended in the hex.
Not so sure that you can search without doing something else....it's not stated as a separate expenditure...You can't spend 0MF as that's not moving. IDK.
Unlike Smoke grenades which are a separate expenditure.
BUT ENTERING SMOKE " 24.7 MOVEMENT: It costs one additional MF/MP to enter a SMOKE " So, the Search must be announced as the unit moves (into a hex. Entering a woods...."spending 3MF to search")
Routing "..if a unit simultaneously expends an extra MF "
Getting shot in that move may pin the unit.
ENDing a MPh has different timings.
A unit ENDS its Mph when searching. Just as Unarmed units expend all their MF to qualify to scrounge, ( this is to alert the player that you can't find weapons on MF 1 expended but after ALL MF are gone....to prevent becoming and armed unit and moving with any remaining MF to the front lines)
i.e. open ground 1MF + 1MF to search upon declaring the MF expended in the hex.
Not so sure that you can search without doing something else....it's not stated as a separate expenditure...You can't spend 0MF as that's not moving. IDK.
Unlike Smoke grenades which are a separate expenditure.
BUT ENTERING SMOKE " 24.7 MOVEMENT: It costs one additional MF/MP to enter a SMOKE " So, the Search must be announced as the unit moves (into a hex. Entering a woods...."spending 3MF to search")
Routing "..if a unit simultaneously expends an extra MF "
Getting shot in that move may pin the unit.
ENDing a MPh has different timings.
A unit ENDS its Mph when searching. Just as Unarmed units expend all their MF to qualify to scrounge, ( this is to alert the player that you can't find weapons on MF 1 expended but after ALL MF are gone....to prevent becoming and armed unit and moving with any remaining MF to the front lines)
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klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
Pretty sure it's a separate MF expenditure - other MF are expended in other ASOP Steps.
BraveDave
Member
Based on the foregoing I agree with Klas. The inability to perform an act because you are pinned is a common prohibition for clearance attempts and you don't have to move prior to a clearance attempt. "End of movement" is a vague phrase since it would seem to mean when you stop spending MF and that doesn't occur until you have completed the Search and become TI. Requiring a unit to expend MF for no reason before it can spend additional MF to perform an act just doesn't make any sense and would seem to require a more specific wording to that effect. I am where I want to be and my movement will begin and end with 1MF to perform a search. I am not subject to DFF until I expend the MF to search.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Interesting question!
Both interpretations seem reasonable and the rules provide situations that seem to reinforce either point:
To place a DC successfully, you need to remain unpinned/unbroken by Defensive Fire vs. the MF-expenditure of placing the DC.
If you attempt to place Infantry Smoke and are successful, Defensive Fire vs. the MF-expenditure for placing Infantry Smoke would be affected by that Smoke.
Both Eagle4ty and Klas are very experienced ruleswise. I'd be eager to hear additional opinions.
von Marwitz
Both interpretations seem reasonable and the rules provide situations that seem to reinforce either point:
To place a DC successfully, you need to remain unpinned/unbroken by Defensive Fire vs. the MF-expenditure of placing the DC.
If you attempt to place Infantry Smoke and are successful, Defensive Fire vs. the MF-expenditure for placing Infantry Smoke would be affected by that Smoke.
Both Eagle4ty and Klas are very experienced ruleswise. I'd be eager to hear additional opinions.
von Marwitz